hi all, im after some opinions on m y Bell Auto services EGR bypass kit.
well i will start at the begining, got the kit followed the instructions to the letter upto the removal of the EGR pipe. i got the Right hand one off no probs, but unfortunatley i nurled the heads on the two 8mm bolts for the left EGR pipe.
it did say it was fiddly to do in the instructions, but i found (after Nurling ) that if i dismantled the housing for the brake resovoir, and removed the clip that holds the two black pipes in place, that access to these two nuts was very easy. (this was not included in the instructions)
anyway, do i
A: leave it well alone. (as no doubt the bolts will shear if i try b:. and this will leave me with a car that is probably inoperable)
B: hammer a female torx bit over the top of the 8mm bolts in the hope that it gives a good purchase and frees them.
C: apply heat and do b: aswell
d: take it to someone to have the bolts removed for me. (if this is possible)
whats your thoughts?
car is back together and running as usual at the moment, but it will mean the bypass kit may not be bale to be fitted.vehicle history = 6 rover metro's 1 LR discovery 200Tdi
2 LR Defenders TD5, and a Discoevry 3. + 2 ducati
28th Mar 2009 8:38 pm
10forcash
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
Leave everything in place, remove the butterfly and crimp the venturi pipes in the throttle body, costs nothing and is much easier to do.
If you do want to fully blank the EGR's then the blanking plates need to be between the exhaust manifold and the EGR - anything else is a compromise (including the workaround above)
28th Mar 2009 8:52 pm
Boby
Member Since: 19 Nov 2008
Location: U.K
Posts: 43
thanks 10forcash
so i am right in thinking that to blank of the EGR effectivley the blanking plate needs to go on the end of the manifold before the EGR unit itself? just blanking off the port where the the pipe runs from the EGR to the inlet is of no use?
would the EGR (butterfly valve i think) come off with the pipe still atached, so i can have a closer work on the bolts in the vice? i think there is a sticky thread on this above.. with good piccies.
when i did this job on a TD5 i took the whole EGR valve assembly off, and blanked ect. with this Bell auto service one i will be only removing the pipes, (stopping the air flow) and removing spindle out of the butterfly (stoping the EGR valves from opening?)
thanks for the quick reply
seems there is more to this than meets the eye!vehicle history = 6 rover metro's 1 LR discovery 200Tdi
2 LR Defenders TD5, and a Discoevry 3. + 2 ducati
28th Mar 2009 9:02 pm
10forcash
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
The EGR's will be blanked with the plates on their outlet, but exhaust gases will still swirl & condense inside the valves, leading to corrosion and ultimately EGR failure 'in the normal way'
The only way to prevent this is to fabricate & fit blanking plates to the underside of the EGR valves, this will prevent any exhaust gases entering the EGRV and therefore prevent any corrosion and subsequent failure
I would also consider coating the moving surfaces with a high temperature lubricant before sealing off the EGRV's
Never tried removing the valves with outlet pipe attached, in theory it should be possible but the access to one of the fasteners may be hindered by virtue of the pipe still being attached
28th Mar 2009 9:08 pm
Boby
Member Since: 19 Nov 2008
Location: U.K
Posts: 43
just to clarify... the Bell Auto service EGR blanking kit really isnt worth bothering with, infact it probably will lead to problems with the EGR' valves due to the fact the dirty burnt exhaust gases will still be passing around the valves causing corroision.?
have a guess what i will be selling on ebay then?
thanks for the advice.vehicle history = 6 rover metro's 1 LR discovery 200Tdi
2 LR Defenders TD5, and a Discoevry 3. + 2 ducati
28th Mar 2009 9:19 pm
simon
Member Since: 11 Jan 2005
Location: Shropshire
Posts: 18296
Boby, exactly right mate. They are there for a reason. Leave well alone.
28th Mar 2009 9:22 pm
10forcash
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
EGR's on the D3 are a far more advanced bit of kit than the TD5 / 300TDi etc. implementation
The only issue with them is the build quality leading to early failures
D3 EGR's are only active when the following criteria are met:-
They have passed a startup self test
The engine is above 75 degrees C
The engine is at 'cruise' (i.e. neither accelerating or decelerating)
Even then, they only remain active for approximately 40 seconds before a 10 second forced closure, this varies on DPF equipped vehicles dependent upon the DPF status
would I fit blanking plates? nah...
28th Mar 2009 9:29 pm
bellautos
Member Since: 02 Feb 2006
Location: NorthYorkshire
Posts: 2532
Hi Boby, if you were having problems i would have advised you if needed on the end of the phone or in a email.
There are mixed feelings about blanking the egrs, some say leave, some say block.
I personaly block them where possibile especialy if the egr valves are prone to problems, i block for prevention over the cure.
Yes its true as 10frcash says blanking at the egr valve will give the same effect as emoving the whole of the pipes etc,
i personaly which is why i offer the kits prefer to remove the pipes from the inlet manifold just to get rid of the restriction while im there, i do this because ive blocked them and they are now no longer needed for me.
Again just my personal preference so its offerd in my kits.
If you are not happy with them because you have decided that they are not for you or you orderd wrongly then send them back and on this occasion ill give you a full refund no problem.
Pete
28th Mar 2009 9:52 pm
Boby
Member Since: 19 Nov 2008
Location: U.K
Posts: 43
very kind of you.
Thanks for your post Bellautos
i wasnt aware you where a member on here!, i didnt think of contacting you about your EGR bypass kit, because there is nothing wrong with it, and as such i didnt think you would be very interested in hearing about my Botch job fitting and all round poor mechanical skills!
The service you provided was excellent, i only ordered the kit thursday lunchtime, and it was delivered 9am friday morning, all the parts where present and correct. i carnt fault it. and now you go way way beyond my ecpectations and offer a refund, just because i have come into difficulty.
I must say im very impressed.
Many thanks.vehicle history = 6 rover metro's 1 LR discovery 200Tdi
2 LR Defenders TD5, and a Discoevry 3. + 2 ducati
28th Mar 2009 10:47 pm
bellautos
Member Since: 02 Feb 2006
Location: NorthYorkshire
Posts: 2532
Your Welcome.
Pete
28th Mar 2009 10:49 pm
matt_tdv6
Member Since: 05 Feb 2009
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 937
I have had a few parts off Pete now
I have the full blanking kit on my D3 and it is very easy to fit,I think its a very good idea because its getting rid of all the and oil build up inside the inlet track
Whilst Simon and TFC choose not to blank their EGR valves, they both drive vehicles that are 1-2 years old, and hence still in warranty (therefore not a good idea to blank and risk any warranty issues). Pete and myself run D3 that are older (mines over 4 years old now) and hence out of warranty, so when either of the 2 poorly designed EGRVs fails it will cost approximately £130 plus labour (3 hours+ ?) to fit a replacement valve of the same poor design. Whilst I have a minuscule amount of guilt for the extra Nitrogen Oxide I'm pushing into the environment as a result of blanking the EGRVs, I can't justify spending so much money on replacement valves when they are so unreliable and the performance suffers so severely when they do decide to fail. Whilst I agree with TFC that ideally they are best blanked on the input side of the valve rather than the output, this is much more difficult and once the valve fails, not really worth it anyway. Of the 4 failed EGR valves that I've now stripped down, none were failed due to exhaust carbon deposits around the valve head - 1 was caused by a failure of the valve position feedback sensor, 2 due to water ingress into the actuator, and 1 due to bearing failure of the internal valve guide. (See http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic29853.html). Having seen the amount of debris that the EGR valves allow into the throttle body and inlet manifolds (see pic below) I'm now very happy with the decision to blank them both, on the 'easier' output side. Both my valves were causing occasional faults to be logged before blanking, but since blanking (and butterfly valve+spindle removal) I couldn't care less whether they work or not as performance doesn't suffer any longer (some claim there is an improvement in engine performance when pulling away once the butterfly is removed), and I know there is no more sticky carbon being deposited the inlet pipework. On later vehicles, I believe a fault light is displayed on the dash when an EGR fault is detected, which is a bit of a pain!
So, concluding, I agree that for a vehicle in warranty it's not worth blanking the EGRs. Also, if you're out of warranty, but want to minimise the emissions of your vehicle, and don't mind spending £300-400 each time a valve fails, then you don't need to blank them either. I'm not in either of these groups, and have been happily blanked for thousands of trouble free (and dealer visit free ) miles. Horses for courses I suppose
Cruddy inlet pipework (at 85000 miles) caused by EGR system:
Click image to enlarge
Blanking plate on EGRV:
Click image to enlarge
Previously:
2005 D3 2.7 TDV6 S
1984 90 2.25 Petrol CSW
1992 90 200TDi Hard Top
1995 Discovery ES 300TDi
2003 90 TD5 Truck Cab
28th Mar 2009 11:34 pm
bellautos
Member Since: 02 Feb 2006
Location: NorthYorkshire
Posts: 2532
Im with you on the bad failure rate of the valves, aparently so my dealer told me my RRS also had new valves at only 21k
They are not getting the chance to fail again, there blocked for good
Plus as you say, i think it far easer to prevent by blanking than cure with a new egr valve when it fails at a moments notice.
Nice pictures, im going to have to get me one of those Sony DSC-W50 cameras if they take pictures as good as that.
My camera is usless as close ups
Pete
28th Mar 2009 11:51 pm
10forcash
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
I chose not to blank on the wrong side of the EGRV, in warranty or not, it makes no engineering sense to put blanking plates on the outlet of the EGRV's
Removing the throttle butterfly on it's own helps with the pull-away 'dip' on a manual transmission vehicle, it does nothing to an auto-trans vehicle by virtue of the higher revs needed before the TC locks, just this mod on it's own will preserve the EGRV's - here's why:-
Blanked off EGRV's will allow exhaust gases to enter them up to the blanking plate, this in turn causes a swirl of exhaust gases, the EGRV's are 'cooled' to a certain extent. Unless Exhaust gases pass through the valves, some of these cooled gases will condense inside the valves chamber forming nitric acid. This in tirn will corrode the EGRV's spindle, seals and eventually work it's way through to the electrical components at the rear of the EGRV, causing the MIL to illuminate upon EGRV failure.
There are only two three ways to prevent this
1. leave the EGR system as it is and wait for the EGRV manufacturer to get it right
2. remove the throttle butterfly and let minimal exhause gases flow through the EGRV's thereby drying out the valves and reducing the potential for condensing gases eating away at the valve components
3. remove the throttle butterfly & blank off the EGRV's between the exhaust manifold and the valve, preventing any ingress into the EGRV at all
28th Mar 2009 11:59 pm
bellautos
Member Since: 02 Feb 2006
Location: NorthYorkshire
Posts: 2532
My egr valves are not electricly connected so a circuit failure wont affect me or the mill lamp
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) that if i dismantled the housing for the brake resovoir, and removed the clip that holds the two black pipes in place, that access to these two nuts was very easy. (this was not included in the instructions)
and oil build up inside the inlet track 
) miles. Horses for courses I suppose 
