DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - CHECK YER TOW BARS THIS WEEKEND.... VOSA ARE ON TO IT!!!

DG
Site Moderator

Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934

Not my intention to imply you did it out of panic .....and as you have now clarified that the movement was greater than the 3mm MOT criteria then of course I wouldn't expect you, I, nor anyone else to drive with it in that condition.

Perhaps we should start a poll ? 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021

7th Jul 2012 10:37 pm

B16 KJR

Member Since: 10 Jul 2006
Location: Rosyth, Fife
Posts: 3005

Quote:
We have already seen B16 KJR order an expensive replacement tow bar to pull his nuclear sub with .....I'm sure nobody wants to see other site users forking out sums perhaps unnecessarily.

Reading this paragraph, to me anyway, would suggest that you did imply I was "panicked" into buying it.

However you have said that was not your intention, so fair enough. I just dont want other forum users to think that was the case

I think it would be a good idea to start a poll, that might encourage other forum users to go out and check theirs, that way at least they would know if there was excessive wear in the towbar

7th Jul 2012 10:45 pm

character

Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5779

2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Auto Alaska White

Appreciate opinions are divided and debates are always a good thing but putting aside whether the numbers are within "tolerance" the fundamental point is that the design characteristics of the rear cross member insert to which the actual tow bar is secured in to means that there is a potential failure where two different grades of metal meet which then have forces imposed upon them could and has lead to failure of the coupling.

On another observations itâ€™s clear that:

a) Those reported incidents of total failure have been restricted to the "removable" tow bar which offers no second chance as might have been afforded to the driver in the case of a "fixed" bar set up - who knows how long our own fixed bar had failed nor do I want to contemplate what might have happened if it was a removable version

b) By proportion I would guess that the "removable" version is by far the most popular choice for towing and by consequence the most vulnerable of complete failure without notice

c) The removable tow bar appears to be sold/promoted as a suitable but equally viable alternative to a fixed bar by the manufacturer and its dealership network whereas its suitability/durability is now under question

d) Those who own such a tow bar are using them oblivious of the failures and have never been advised that they might not be capable of "everyday" use

e) In the absence of any Service Action by JLR dealerships or cost effective solution, by posting this thread highlighting a potential issue and how to identify a possible problem (i.e. able to be moved left and right whilst still in situ) I would not consider "alarmist" but as case of "look this is happening to others, donâ€™t let it happen to you"

f) Disappointed that some might feel it "alarmist" or a case of acting on "if's or might's" as actual events of failures have been reported to those who police such issues long before mine or other forum members experiences with the manufacturer / VOSA currently working upon physical solution and a means of educating those who sell and those who service the product effected under VOSA General Code of Practice on Vehicle Defects - UK General Product Safety Regulations 2005) and I quote the definition of a safety defect, as described in the Code is " a feature of design or construction liable to cause significant risk of serious personal injury or death but excluding "those defects that are attributed to neglect, lack of maintenance, abuse, fair wear and tear or provide sufficient advanced warning to a driver"

Appreciate that some are good at being critics but less capable of positive contributions, I have broad enough shoulders for that but if this post has given just one other forum member/reader the opportunity to prevent the loss of their valuables or being fined/inconvenienced at the roadside or at worst prevented injury to some completely innocent person, then that's fine by me and criticise all yer like chaps

Last edited by character on 7th Jul 2012 10:58 pm. Edited 2 times in total

7th Jul 2012 10:48 pm

DG
Site Moderator

Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934

B16 KJR wrote:
Reading this paragraph, to me anyway, would suggest that you did imply I was "panicked" into buying it.
...
I think it would be a good idea to start a poll,

Well maybe as you hadn't clarified at that point that your ball movement was greater than 3mm then I guess it would be fair to say that I implied you changed it out of a concern ...but "panicked" was your word not mine

Anyway less of the niceties

Wording for poll questions ? 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021

7th Jul 2012 10:51 pm

DG
Site Moderator

Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934

character wrote:

Appreciate that some are good at being critics but less capable of positive contributions,

Well I was trying to throw out an olive branch ...however you have still missed the point that a positive contribution is surely trying to establish fact.

Keep up the good work

21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021

7th Jul 2012 11:14 pm

character

Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5779

BTW not directed specifically at you but to another

As for facts, will speak to the VOSA man next week now that I've got his letter in today

7th Jul 2012 11:18 pm

blue meanie
D3 Decade

Member Since: 04 Aug 2005
Location: Newbury
Posts: 6861

2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Manual Cairns Blue

Surely from a practical point of view; any mechanical item that has an intrinsic safety aspect and has a single point of failure association should be checked on every use? and theeeeennn......???

7th Jul 2012 11:25 pm

character

Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5779

Me or LR tech

As for dealerships/techs, not within their remit until JLR tell to or if a customer instructs them to it would appear.

But with over 1800 readers of this post, I'm sure a few will be thinking otherwise

7th Jul 2012 11:29 pm

ruggedpeak

Member Since: 10 Jun 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 1625

2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 XS Auto Zermatt Silver

character wrote:

2) An RTC where the trailer has been detached from towing vehicle may not be reported to VOSA unless the vehicle is required to have an Operators Licence which of course has only just started to come in to force with 3500kg vehicles towing likewise I believe the rules are similar in the event of an injury RTC

That's correct insofar as an injury accident would have to be reported and investigated by the Police. In theory if there was an OL this would be referred to the Commercial Vehicle Unit team, who may then refer to the Traffic Commissioner, most likely if they think the rtc was a result of operator failures/non-compliance.

The danger is whether the investigators are aware of this as an issue, as some poor driver may end up being prosecuted under C&U regs for vehicle defects that are inherent rather than poor maintenance etc.

It will only be flagged to VOSA if those investigating the collision recognise the possibility of this problem. It is not unreasonable for an officer seeing a removable towbar on the carriageway to assume the driver failed to insert it correctly and it worked its way out i.e. driver error. The driver will swear blind it was in fine and the officer, in their report, makes a judgement call on the cause of the accident. Hopefully an open mined traffic cop will consider towbar failure, but on a newish car renowned for its towing ability?

So what I am saying is, there is no guarantee that VOSA will be fed this info unless they flag for review all notified collisions involving D3 towbar failure. Some poor drivers may well get prosecuted for this. And as usual, it may well take a fatal or pile up for this to be properly dealt with - in a life changing PI or fatal the towbar will be looked at in detail, but in other cases it will be left to insurers to sort out and probably be ignored.

JLR really need to think about the potential consequences of having a class leading tow car in this situation, if the facts are as presented. Tony

Club RLD Wheel Protector & Sump Guard
Club 4x4 Info activated

8th Jul 2012 11:12 am

ruggedpeak

Member Since: 10 Jun 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 1625

character wrote:

Appreciate that some are good at being critics but less capable of positive contributions, I have broad enough shoulders for that but if this post has given just one other forum member/reader the opportunity to prevent the loss of their valuables or being fined/inconvenienced at the roadside or at worst prevented injury to some completely innocent person, then that's fine by me and criticise all yer like chaps

Keep up the good work. Ignore the tw8ts, everyone on here should be old enough to make their own grown up decisions on whether this is an issue for them. I'd certainly rather know than not.

Tony

Club RLD Wheel Protector & Sump Guard
Club 4x4 Info activated

8th Jul 2012 11:15 am

B16 KJR

Member Since: 10 Jul 2006
Location: Rosyth, Fife
Posts: 3005

Quote:
Well maybe as you hadn't clarified at that point that your ball movement was greater than 3mm then I guess it would be fair to say that I implied you changed it out of a concern ...but "panicked" was your word not mine

Quote:
There was definitely wear in the towbar fitting, not so much front to back, but side to side. Also the slightest touch of the green handle and the movement was dramatic. This little movement of the handle would happen when hitting a bump in the road. Once something gets a little slack and allows some movement, it soon gets worse very quickly.

2mm, 3mm who cares, there should not be ANY movement. If there is movement, then every time you tow it will get worse. As I said earlier, if I had not read this post I would not have thought to check the towbar for the source of my clunk. Thanks to Characters heads up, I did check it and found the play. In my opinion ANY play in a towbar is unacceptable and for that reason alone I decided to replace it from a safety point of view. When you are towing a heavy trailer or caravan at speeds of up to 60mph on undulating and sometimes bumpy roads the last thing you want is play in your towbar fitting.

Personally I feel that Character has done us all a favour by pointing out this and suggesting we all check ours. As I said earlier in one of my replies :-

Quote:
Quote:
He suggested we check the towbar, if you do and theres no play, then all is well. However like me, if there is play then at least you know about it and can take whatever action you feel is appropriate, in my case I wont use it.

Last edited by B16 KJR on 8th Jul 2012 11:40 am. Edited 1 time in total

8th Jul 2012 11:35 am

DG
Site Moderator

Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934

Thanks for the reply there and I understand your point B19 ...but as it would seem I fall into the "Tw8t" category then I think it's best that I leave you all to get on with it and hope that whatever the outcome other site users will at some point be able to obtain clear and concise factual guidance to enable them to make the judgements

21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021

8th Jul 2012 12:03 pm

B16 KJR

Member Since: 10 Jul 2006
Location: Rosyth, Fife
Posts: 3005

Its a shame you are going to pull out of this debate as all opinions, whether controversional or not, are what makes a debate

Quote:
other site users will at some point be able to obtain clear and concise factual guidance to enable them to make the judgements

I appreciate what you are saying, but for me the only " clear and concise factual guidance" I needed, was to go out and try to move the towbar. I don't need LR or VOSA to tell me in a letter, that a 2mm play is acceptable, to me its not.

8th Jul 2012 12:16 pm

B16 KJR

Member Since: 10 Jul 2006
Location: Rosyth, Fife
Posts: 3005

Character, this seems to have been going on for some time now. I found this :-

Quote:
March 17th, 2008, 01:47 PM #12
trebaix
FRESHMAN ROVER
Join Date
January 20th, 2008
Location
UK
Posts
10
Just to update you. Have been back to the dealer with my "loose" Westfalia multiheight towbar. They checked and reported that there is a recall on them and sent for the parts. These were fitted last sat. It seems the L-pin with a locking clevis pin is replaced with a 7/8 bolt. The towbar itself has a helicoil thread insert. Once the bolt is put threaded in a nut is put on the bolt and a locking pin inserted. It will do the job I suspect, but it takes 5 minutes to "detach" or "replace". Personally not a great problem as it stays on most of the time.

colin

They say the LR towbar is made by Westfalia and there was a recall and a "fix" for this. If this is the case that it is the OEM towbar, then it would appear it is a known issue.

8th Jul 2012 12:50 pm

WOODY179

Member Since: 01 Jun 2005
Location: Chesterfield
Posts: 3634

ruggedpeak you have really shown how mature you are by calling people names

You are right that everyone should make their own minds up about this and be aware of the problem - but the only person that has posted actual facts (backed up with adequate references) is DG, until that changes I still say that this thread is alarmist.

After all I do not see any mention that the failed towbar and cross member was on a D3 that had completed 1/2 a million miles (or more) and had done heavy towing for most of its life.

Okay there have been a few other users report failures, but as most of them have not posted the outcome we do not know the full story.

Anyone that it is towing a trailer etc should always make sure as best as possible that the towbar is secure and if it isnt get it checked out.

8th Jul 2012 2:45 pm