DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Clarkson warns NOT to re-map...

croyde

Member Since: 17 Aug 2005
Location: SE England
Posts: 459

Since the last software upgrade my TDV6 is plenty fast enough for a 3 ton lump. Surprises many a saloon but it is a manual though so it was always able to deal with the initial sluggishness with a bit of clutch slipping and high revs.

Unfortunately, now it is fast it also now uses too much fuel.

21st Nov 2006 9:58 am

Robbie

Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932

2013 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 HSE Auto Baltic Blue

The major hole in Clarksonâ€™s argument is that major car makers do indeed tune cars for extra performance. As has already been mentioned, major manufacturers provide different performance maps for marketing reasons and product growth. Engines often start their life at a low state of tune and are slowly improved over their life just to show product growth and enhancement. Moreover, most manufacturers allow you to specify different suspension, wheels, brakes, external trim etc.

I suppose Clarkson is aiming at botched improvements or ones done without care. He is first to rate manufacturerâ€™s highly tuned versions of otherwise bland cars. I read the article as aiming for the idiots who go around pub car parks offering re-maps that are ill-conceived and potentially hazardous.

Given that most of us now have a different ECU map in our D3s than first appeared at launch, with less lag, more low down grunt and better MPG I think that we should all get more used to the idea of re-maps.

21st Nov 2006 10:26 am

al cope

Member Since: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 10297

I have to say that mine isnt remapped (cant sneak the funding past 'er indoors), but is bloody quick. Its a manual, I've had it from new, now with 20k miles on it in 12 months, and with a few revs it gets off the mark very well. Most of my mileage is motorway stuff, and from 70 up, it surprises mondeo man every time as it leaves him behind. I've never had an issue in changing lanes/speed with ease/instant aceleration. I'm always pleasently surprised how much pull it still has from 3 figures upwards, and I have seen it on its published max speed.

No complaints here about its standard performance.

Al Volvo XC90 B5 Plus Dark
Gone - MY18 D5 HSE - Corris on 22's with Black Pack
Now gone - MY16 D4 SE Tech, Loire Blue, Almond Leather, Privacy, plus some other goodies.
Old - MY12 D4 SDV6 XS Auto - Ipanema Sand with Almond Leather - Plus other niceties, and D4.com sticker
Older - D3 TDV6 XS Auto - Lugano Teal with Almond Leather, 20" Stormers, Shiny Tailpipes, DVD/TV - and obligatory D3 sticker
Ancient - D3 TDV6 S - Tonga with Ebony, 20" Stormers, satnav & DVD

21st Nov 2006 10:49 am

COMMANDO

Member Since: 09 Oct 2006
Location: NORTH WEST
Posts: 67

Tuning

I think the people moaning about the performance of the TDV6 must have bought the car without a test drive,or did they test drive it and think-oh this is a bit sluggish I think I will buy one!
If the car they bought was different to the demo car they should take it back!My TDV6 S is ok for what it is a- 3 ton off-roader.If I wanted performance I would have bought a petrol version.Maybe these tuning firms could tell us exactly what they change in the mapping and leave the customer to decide if they want to take the risk with reliability.

21st Nov 2006 11:04 am

Robbie

Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932

Most tuning companies are very very open with what they change.

I did buy my D3 after a test drive. I did think it was a little gutless, but thought hey... I can always get it re-mapped.

Some major dealers offer re-maps to any customer that asks. "So Sir finds the performance a little tame... may I suggest..."

ECU re-maps are not new and well understood, so why do some think that their car is at risk?

My car is smooth, powerfull and gets better MPG than a standard map. Why would I go to the expense of a petrol?

21st Nov 2006 12:02 pm

CFB

Member Since: 02 Dec 2005
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
Posts: 6100

Surprised that we have had no replies from JE or TC on the thread? I too am considering a re-map but am only really concerned with adversely affecting the MPG. Performance of my Auto is pretty acceptable with the exception of the delay from pushing the accelerator (car at a standstill) to something actually happening, not something my old D2 suffered from. If I could cure this with a remap and improve MPG I'd have it done, although it irritates me that I have to consider an external company charging me for something LR should have sorted out.

As an aside, my car was built in Aug 06 so not sure if it will have had the enhancement stuff done, how can I check? 2020 BMW X1 18d XDrive X-Line Auto

21st Nov 2006 1:13 pm

Pelyma

Member Since: 06 Jan 2005
Location: Patching, Sussex
Posts: 15496

I think if you want it done get it done, if you're a scaredy cat like me don't. I can't see the extra bhp causing a problem, except with the brakes maybe. Enough people on this forum have had remaps done, all over the world and I can't say I've heard of any problems. JC is selling newspapers! At the same time having heard how some remaps and plug in boxes work I would avoid them. DS3 TDV6 HSE - Silver with Alpaca (old one) Gone
DS3 TDV6 HSE- Silver with Alpaca (new one) Gone
D4 HSE Lux - Montalcino Red Gone
Porsche Cayenne V8 Diesel S

21st Nov 2006 1:44 pm

retired

Member Since: 18 Feb 2006
Location: Surrey
Posts: 158

2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto Bonatti Grey

I find the performance of my car adequate and no more. Itâ€™s fine up to 60 ish beyond that it gathers momentum rather than accelerates. For most of the time this is fine as I either travel in town or along motorways. The time I miss better acceleration is on â€˜Aâ€™ or â€˜Bâ€™ roads when Iâ€™d like to overtake, probably within a restricted opportunity, something travelling at about 50 to 55mph. This takes careful planning.

Thinking about a performance enhancement the following come to mind:

Insurance, I would need to tell the insurance company as they will use any excuse not to payout. In the event of a large claim they will work assiduously to find any reason not to pay.

Warranty, its not just the engine but the extra loads put on the entire transmission / brakes. Just the get out needed when looking to not settle a warranty claim.

Is the entire transmission chain , esp gearbox, able to deal with the enhanced power and torque?

Brakes, I note the V8 has enhanced brakes

What is the effect of the remap on the TR programmes, which, I suspect, are different maps themselves.

Automatic gearboxes will be programmed with a change pattern which reflects the power and torque characteristics (power / torques available at differing engine speeds )of the engine. What effect does the changed power / torques characteristics have on vehicle and gearbox performance.

I know that suppliers state that the remap is undetectable, but Iâ€™d be more comfortable if someone independent and with relevant technical knowledge could confirm this.

21st Nov 2006 1:44 pm

Robbie

Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932

retired wrote:
Insurance, I would need to tell the insurance company as they will use any excuse not to payout. In the event of a large claim they will work assiduously to find any reason not to pay.

Fair point, always best to the insurance company. With most it is a very small additional loading (sub Â£50).

retired wrote:
Warranty, its not just the engine but the extra loads put on the entire transmission / brakes. Is the entire transmission chain , esp gearbox, able to deal with the enhanced power and torque?

The gearbox and tranmission is rated to take the load (and then some!)

retired wrote:
Brakes, I note the V8 has enhanced brakes

The re-map makes no change to the weight of the car. If you are braking from any given speed there is no difference. The V8 is, of course, a little heavier.

retired wrote:
What is the effect of the remap on the TR programmes, which, I suspect, are different maps themselves.

No effect.

retired wrote:
Automatic gearboxes will be programmed with a change pattern which reflects the power and torque characteristics (power / torques available at differing engine speeds )of the engine. What effect does the changed power / torques characteristics have on vehicle and gearbox performance.

The gearbox is not programmed with a change pattern. The 'box is addaptive and will rapidly adjust to the new power and torque available. The net effect is that when driving normaly the car changes up sooner and needs to change down less. This helps with the MPG.

I am sure someone from one of the more major companies will step in at some point with the tech bit. I think a key point is the style of driver that the D3 attracts. We are not exactly boy racers. I hardly ever use the extra performance, but just as some have said before it helps when you need to overtake, pull a trailer, save a little fuel and (with the extra torque) makes for a quiet and refined way to drive. It did not escape my attention the the Enhancement Programme introduced a few changes more akin to JE and Turbochip products, even if it did leave the top end alone.

21st Nov 2006 2:26 pm

LT

Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23369

2016 Discovery 4 3.0 TDV6 Landmark LE Auto Santorini Black

JC may well be reffering to the "programs" that you can buy along with the required hardware that allows anyone to change the ECU settings of an engine using a laptop. Potentially very dangerous if your are not an experienced engine tuner. I've previously owned 2 Chevy 5.7 litre V8 engined cars & there are many different such programs available for this engine, I've certainly heard of a few V8's that have gone pop.
L/R have to factor into the standard ECU map of the TDV6 allowances for running with varying grades of diesel, not being serviced to schedule & driving under extreme conditions etc.
If like me, you use quality branded diesel, drive mainly on roads & regularly check & service your D3, a remap from a reputable tuner (such as the ones who sponsor this site) should give you nothing at all to worry about.
A classic example of re-mapping can be found in the VAG engines that are shared between VW, Audi & Skoda models. Their 1.8T petrol engine has a bhp output of between 148 -240.
Would the doubters not buy the 240bhp version in case it "blew up"?

21st Nov 2006 4:07 pm

PSC

Member Since: 01 May 2006
Location: Johannesburg
Posts: 255

2010 Discovery 4 5.0 V8 HSE Auto Fuji White

Robbie wrote:

The re-map makes no change to the weight of the car. If you are braking from any given speed there is no difference. The V8 is, of course, a little heavier.

Actually it ( the V8 ) weighs less. The kerb weight on the diesel vehicles is between 8 and 14 Kgs more. The brakes on the V8 are bigger because it has better performance, hence RRS SC has even bigger brakes

-- Paul

21st Nov 2006 4:16 pm

Robbie

Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932

PSC wrote:
Robbie wrote:

The re-map makes no change to the weight of the car. If you are braking from any given speed there is no difference. The V8 is, of course, a little heavier.

Actually it ( the V8 ) weighs less. The kerb weight on the diesel vehicles is between 8 and 14 Kgs more. The brakes on the V8 are bigger because it has better performance, hence RRS SC has even bigger brakes

-- Paul

Well you live and learn, as LR (UK Spec) list the D3 (EEC kerb) as 2504 for the TDV and 2536 for the petrol - +32 Kg counts as a little heavier.

You only need bigger brakes to stop a vehicle that is either heavier or is traveling faster. Some fit bigger brakes for the 'image', but a re-mapped D3 will do fine with its original brakes.

21st Nov 2006 4:30 pm

DG
Site Moderator

Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934

LT wrote:
Would the doubters not buy the 240bhp version in case it "blew up"?

Lets get the word 'doubters' into context......

Firstly, for clarification, I don't doubt for one minute that both TC and JE are very professional companies who make every effort to ensure the integrity of their respective products. They have been in the enhancement game for a long period of time and I am very aware of the views of the members who have the products installed in their D3's and how pleased they are. As far as I am aware, there are no known mechanical or technical issues related to either product.

The major difference in your original question is that the re-map is carried out by the VAG engineering themselves. Apart from suggesting fuel issues nobody can so far say why LR couldn't enhance the performance of the D3 to that offered by TC\JE...... and that is all that forms the basis of my concerns. If LR offered remapped models themselves like VAG does then I would be far more comfortable in also looking at a third party. 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021

21st Nov 2006 5:02 pm

dgrr

Member Since: 04 Apr 2006
Location: York
Posts: 212

2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Bonatti Grey

dickgriff wrote:
If LR offered remapped models themselves like VAG does then I would be far more comfortable in also looking at a third party.

Me too!! DGRR

21st Nov 2006 5:17 pm

Mossy

Member Since: 01 Jul 2005
Location: Hollyoaks, UK
Posts: 2682

2006 Discovery 3 4.4 V8 HSE Auto Zambezi Silver

If they ever put the TDV8 in the D3, would there still be a queue for this to be chipped? I suspect so.

If we want re-mapped ECUs for the extra performance, then we will justify this to ourselves no matter what the possible consequences may be. I think the justification comes from how badly we want it? D3 HSE V8...

21st Nov 2006 5:28 pm