Member Since: 04 Apr 2006
Location: York
Posts: 212
Clarkson warns NOT to re-map...
"...But I noted the enormous wheels and the low-profile tyres and couldn’t help thinking: “If they work, then why didn’t Jaguar fit them in the first place?†More worrying are those who try to change a car’s performance using nothing but a laptop...
...People in corporate short-sleeved shirts try to cure misfires, and a million other maladies besides, by plugging the car into a laptop and giving the map a new set of compromises. It never works. Ever."
Anyone read JC's column in the Sunday Times yesterday? (The full article is here:
http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0...2,00.html)
Whilst leading ultimately to his test-drive of some hotted-up VW, he concludes that aftermarket re-tuning (whether of the ECU, suspension settings or whatever) will ALWAYS compromise some other aspect of the car's performance. Clarkson is rarely backward in coming forward on the subject of more speed, so to read such caution coming from someone like him was a bit surprising.
As someone who's toying with the idea of an engine re-map, I'd be especially interested in what the likes of TurboChip or JE Eng. might have to say on the matter. But comments from all would be very welcome ...DGRR
20th Nov 2006 4:32 pm
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934
I'll stick my neck out ...as I have in the past in respect of chips\remaps
If they (the modders) have got it so right and so much better, then why wouldn't LR just apply the same settings for all
...I'm sitting at my desk with my tin hat on awaiting the barrage of abuse to follow 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
20th Nov 2006 4:51 pm
al cope
Member Since: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 10297
usual answer is that the manufacturer always goes for a compramise level of tuning/performance, given different markets/fuel quality, so in essence, the remap is just bring out what is there to be had (if that makes sense), given our decent quality fuel.
AlVolvo XC90 B5 Plus Dark
Gone - MY18 D5 HSE - Corris on 22's with Black Pack
Now gone - MY16 D4 SE Tech, Loire Blue, Almond Leather, Privacy, plus some other goodies.
Old - MY12 D4 SDV6 XS Auto - Ipanema Sand with Almond Leather - Plus other niceties, and D4.com sticker
Older - D3 TDV6 XS Auto - Lugano Teal with Almond Leather, 20" Stormers, Shiny Tailpipes, DVD/TV - and obligatory D3 sticker
Ancient - D3 TDV6 S - Tonga with Ebony, 20" Stormers, satnav & DVD
20th Nov 2006 5:01 pm
DickyH
Member Since: 07 Aug 2006
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 81
I agree with you DG
What people need to understand is that the theoretcial maximum power output of any engine is far, far higher than how it leaves the factory. However, it is a compromise (as with so many things) between power, efficiency, useability and, more importantly, reliability and longevity. In these respects, the manufacturer needs to mass produce engines that will be sufficiently attractive to the market but will also last a long time so that they are not inundated by expensive warranty claims. This is what happened to TVR with the Speed6 engine. Huge power output, but it wouldn't last more than a few months.
Consider a racing car engine that is based on say a production 2L unit. These engines produce incredible power for their size because they are so highly tuned, but they are not designed to last a long time, and they need constant rebuilding and attention. In theory you could achieve something similar with your D3 engine, but whilst it might do 0-60 in six seconds, it would probably not last more than six weeks.
Anyway, you get my point. It's all a big compromise, and your engine leaves the factory in a state of tune designed to be useful, but to last for a long time. I, personally, would not mess with it
20th Nov 2006 5:26 pm
al cope
Member Since: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 10297
Just want to add something, tuning doesnt always mean loss of longevity. A friend of mine is running a Y plate TD5 which now has 160k miles on the clock. It was remapped and fitted with a larger intercooler by JE, and has now done over 100k miles in its tuned state (JE - Its Simon's blue TD5 auto).
Its not all bad news if done correctly.
AlVolvo XC90 B5 Plus Dark
Gone - MY18 D5 HSE - Corris on 22's with Black Pack
Now gone - MY16 D4 SE Tech, Loire Blue, Almond Leather, Privacy, plus some other goodies.
Old - MY12 D4 SDV6 XS Auto - Ipanema Sand with Almond Leather - Plus other niceties, and D4.com sticker
Older - D3 TDV6 XS Auto - Lugano Teal with Almond Leather, 20" Stormers, Shiny Tailpipes, DVD/TV - and obligatory D3 sticker
Ancient - D3 TDV6 S - Tonga with Ebony, 20" Stormers, satnav & DVD
Last edited by al cope on 20th Nov 2006 5:42 pm. Edited 1 time in total
20th Nov 2006 5:41 pm
Ken
Member Since: 20 Feb 2006
Location: Here
Posts: 10865
I cant be ar$3d to give a reply, re-map if you want and if you dont like the idea dont, but it is give and take, its that simple.
20th Nov 2006 5:41 pm
BarryG
Member Since: 30 Apr 2006
Location: Eire
Posts: 1333
Good post and views .....
I have a TC ... and to be honest if you told me that I couldn't have it , you could keep the D3 .. as with out it I found it a lacking , dangerous lump (my view here guys).
If the chip (and other things I have done) are what make this motor acceptable
to me , I'll take may chances.
20th Nov 2006 5:53 pm
simkna
Member Since: 21 Feb 2006
Location: Leicester
Posts: 806
JC's argument is that a remap is always a compromise... Isn't that what the original OE map is?
Si.Pat's Van
D3 TDV6 S Auto
Rimini Red / Alpacca Leather
20th Nov 2006 6:00 pm
simon
Member Since: 11 Jan 2005
Location: Shropshire
Posts: 18296
BarryG wrote:
Good post and views .....
I have a TC ... and to be honest if you told me that I couldn't have it , you could keep the D3 .. as with out it I found it a lacking , dangerous lump (my view here guys).
If the chip (and other things I have done) are what make this motor acceptable
to me , I'll take may chances.
Point taken Barry but I have to disagree that its a "dangerous lump" though. The latest LR mapping is good enough and my D3 has always pulled fine. Once run in the motor is great. Only issue I had was a hesitation between 1st and 2nd gears unless you caught it right.
Since May this has been fixed along with most of the turbo lag 95% of the time.
But a TC or JE would be nice thought to add even more
20th Nov 2006 6:07 pm
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934
BarryG wrote:
.. as with out it I found it a lacking , dangerous lump
There must have been something wrong with your's perhaps Barry ...I find my TDV6 is more than adequate (.. and yes I have driven a JE'd motor).
I don't buy the crap fuel argument either...engines are tuned to specific markets to maintain emmissions regs so why would they not also take into account markets with decent fuel gradings. Surely your not saying that they tailor the motor to run on third world fuel standards ??
Overall, I'm not saying I dislike the idea of a bit more oomph, who wouldn't, but the guys who spent millions (or perhaps billions) developing this engine have specified it's output for a reason.....and I don't honestly believe that they sat there thinking "oh we might have someone from Nicaragua filling up with sh*tty fuel...so we better dumb it down chaps"
As Ken has said ...it's horses for courses ...if you like ...do ...if you don't ...don't 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
20th Nov 2006 6:19 pm
retired
Member Since: 18 Feb 2006
Location: Surrey
Posts: 158
It's not just an engineering issue. From a manufacturer's point of view it's also a marketing strategy.
E.g. mercedes offer an E280 or E320 e class. It's the same 3 litre engine with different maps. and of course, a different price.
The same VW group diesel engine comes in an large number of power outputs depending on which car and specification you purchase.
20th Nov 2006 6:59 pm
BarryG
Member Since: 30 Apr 2006
Location: Eire
Posts: 1333
Simon : I really did find it dangerous , nearly got creamed the first few week I had it
No power at low rpm , I had the upgrade done by local dealer and it did improve things , but I was still not happy it .. perhaps it just the type of driving I do , or perhaps just my expectations. Don't get me wrong I have been in jeeps all my life its not as if I came from hot Evo or Scooby into a D3 . my last motor was a Navara with a 2.5 lump , it was not a refined as the tdv6 bit it did
move when you needed it , trying to get the power down and stopping the back
sliding all over the road was a different story though
DickGriff : On reflection I don't think that there was anything wrong with it ..
But perhaps I didn't give the dealer upgrade enough time in that I had the TC
done two week after the service.
I have an open mind about the fuel thing , during the summer I had the D3 over the pond and had the opportunity to use some of your lovely BP Diesel , (not the standard stuff) the higher up version we don’t get anything like that over here
we just get standard diesel , and poor at that . I did notice a difference , not in mpg but just in general pick up , also not as much smoke as I have now on the Irish stuff.
I guess to sum here Guy's , and true for Ken , horses for courses.
My D3 now suites my lifestyle better now than when it was standard , I know the risks in what I have done , but I have researched my decision and as long as I mind the Jeep , give it the best of parts and sundries as and when they are needed everything I hope will work out.
If not well...... That’s life ... I’ve have a bit of fun at the weekends messing around with the motor , learned a load of new things and meet some really
Interesting people along the way,
20th Nov 2006 7:13 pm
simon
Member Since: 11 Jan 2005
Location: Shropshire
Posts: 18296
Fair enough Barry. Just like DG I feel the motor is well matched to the vehicle. It does though take a good few thousand miles to really start to loosen up.
Whenever I get a new loaner from my dealer, it feels very sluggish. But if you have the TC treatment and your happy with your lot, then great for you.
I'd have to have real reason to do an upgrade - ie if the MPG was dramatically improved then I would probably lash out the £500 plus to get it done as it would pay for itself. The extra pull would of course be a bonus.
I too have driven a JE D3 (same one as DG I suspect ) and 5 suspect it was quicker than mine... hard to tell as mine is a manual and the machine I drove was an auto.
I agree with Barry.
Without TC or JE the car is just too slow IMO. If you are used to a Disco2 or other LR (not RR) then a standard Disco 3 would seem OK , the disco 2 really was a very poor ROAD car in almost all respects.
If you actually like driving on the ROAD the upgrade is a must.
If you are happy to drive a slug and enjoy no oomph, dangerous overtaking, heart in mouth every time you try to pull onto any type of fast flowing road, don't chip, otherwise IMO its essential.
The engine can be/and has been tuned and run on a dyno (so I am told) at more than 400bhp, 40-50 extra is going to do nothing.
love all.
20th Nov 2006 10:26 pm
simon
Member Since: 11 Jan 2005
Location: Shropshire
Posts: 18296
NICKNICK wrote:
I agree with Barry.
Without TC or JE the car is just too slow IMO. If you are used to a Disco2 or other LR (not RR) then a standard Disco 3 would seem OK , the disco 2 really was a very poor ROAD car in almost all respects.
If you actually like driving on the ROAD the upgrade is a must.
If you are happy to drive a slug and enjoy no oomph, dangerous overtaking, heart in mouth every time you try to pull onto any type of fast flowing road, don't chip, otherwise IMO its essential.
The engine can be/and has been tuned and run on a dyno (so I am told) at more than 400bhp, 40-50 extra is going to do nothing.
love all.
Maybe using the gears in a manual makes a difference. 0-60 is slowish of course. Mid range in the right gear its pulls pretty damn well.
But hey, if you want more power you can (and have) buy it.
Happy with mine, not dangerous, not too slow to join traffic nor overtake.
Oh and my last ride was Audi 2.5TDI 180BHP Avant Quattro Sport... so used to bags of torque and mid range M3 beating acceleration
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...
...I find my TDV6 is more than adequate (.. and yes I have driven a JE'd motor).
