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hgbosch
Member Since: 25 Oct 2010
Location: Pretoria and Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 188
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NJSS wrote:Quote:what we actually desperately need are the torque settings for the big end and main bearing caps.
Why not simply ask Land Rover, in writing, saying you are rebuilding an engine after a precautionary strip down?
They can hardly refuse.
NJSS
Hi NJSS
that was the first thing we did. Albeit without much luck! EX AFRICA SEMPER ALIQUID NOVI
SEMPER IN FAECIBUS SUMUS SOLE, PROFUNDUM VARIAT
with kind regards
George Bosch
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
2003 Range Rover Td6
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi (sold)
And some more serious stuff
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22nd Aug 2012 8:51 pm |
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hgbosch
Member Since: 25 Oct 2010
Location: Pretoria and Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 188
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D4JWW wrote:hugeviking wrote:Getting a bit worrying now.
But is this amount of failures above the industry average ? . Personally I would be well peeved if the crank went on any engine with less than 200,000 miles - perhaps I'm naive.
Are all the failures due to the crank bearing rotating as hgbosch has found, or could some be attributed to wrong oil/fuel/ etc.
I'm hoping that some of the trade that are on this site can provide some info on any of this.
Andi. +1
Thanks DicoMickey for the your Responce have you noticed the bearing moving on the crank of affected engines?
Hi Andi
we will be posting pictures as soon as we get them. One engine was stripped with a bearing knock, BEFORE it seized and that has given us the opportunity to assess how the damage comes about.
The bearîng in question is wafer thin and very narrow in the middle of the bearing.
You guys will be shocked when you see the pics. EX AFRICA SEMPER ALIQUID NOVI
SEMPER IN FAECIBUS SUMUS SOLE, PROFUNDUM VARIAT
with kind regards
George Bosch
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
2003 Range Rover Td6
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi (sold)
And some more serious stuff
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22nd Aug 2012 9:14 pm |
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DiscoStu
Member Since: 09 Apr 2006
Location: London
Posts: 11412
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But has the bearing moved due to lack of lubrication on that journal (causing it to pickup), or is the lack of lube because the bearing turned? If a journal starts to pickup it will always turn a shell that has no lock tabs.
Even finding one part-way to destruction is still a chicken & egg scenario - it may mean they aren't turning on running engines, just turning when lube fails to reach that journal. Disco 5 HSE Lux
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peyiqaJrmMU
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22nd Aug 2012 10:39 pm |
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hgbosch
Member Since: 25 Oct 2010
Location: Pretoria and Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 188
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Unnecessary quote removed
Hi Discostu
very good and qualified questions you raise here. The facts are:
1. There are NO tabs on the big end bearings
2. We suspect that over time, bearing wear (they get thinner) gets them to start turning during cold start, when there is no adequate protection.
3. Over time once they have turned to the point, where the oil feed hole on the big ends gets obstructed, accelerated wear will set in until the oil feed hole is completely obstructed. And now it is just a question of time until the engine quits with either run bearings, a snapped conrod or even a snapped crank.
These are the documented facts. As soon as I have the pics, I will post them here. EX AFRICA SEMPER ALIQUID NOVI
SEMPER IN FAECIBUS SUMUS SOLE, PROFUNDUM VARIAT
with kind regards
George Bosch
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
2003 Range Rover Td6
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi (sold)
And some more serious stuff
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23rd Aug 2012 6:21 am |
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amazing
Member Since: 05 Mar 2011
Location: chengdu
Posts: 1542
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hi
not good news,
may I enquire have vehicles you have seen had the cats removed? It is better to have and not need it then need and not have it.
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23rd Aug 2012 7:58 am |
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NJSS
Member Since: 06 May 2009
Location: Catherington, Hampshire.
Posts: 10464
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Quote:We suspect that over time, bearing wear (they get thinner) gets them to start turning during cold start, when there is no adequate protection.
This, and cold start engine wear, could be reduced or eliminated by using an Accusump:-
http://www.accusump.com/accusump_tech.html#whatis
I am thinking of this, & will report findings.
NJSS Am I Gammon or Woke ? - I neither know nor care.
2016 Discovery 4 Landmark
2011 Mercedes Benz SL350 (R230)
1973 MG B GT V8 - 3.9L John Eales engine, 5 speed R380 gearbox, since 1975.
1959 MGA roadster - 1.9L Peter Burgess Engine - 5 speed gearbox
Past LRs - Multiple FFRs, Discos & a Series I - some petrol, some diesel,
none Electric or H2 fuel cell - yet.
There are 10 types of people in this world: Those who understand binary, and those who don’t.
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23rd Aug 2012 8:10 am |
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hgbosch
Member Since: 25 Oct 2010
Location: Pretoria and Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 188
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amazing wrote:hi
not good news,
may I enquire have vehicles you have seen had the cats removed?
Hi amazing
is there a specific reason for your question. There is no correlation between cat or decatted vehicle and this bearing problem.
The cat would impact on the combustion process, but not on the lubrication side.
We suspect that the problem is manifesting itself (over time) due to insufficient lubrication during start up, but that goes for all vehicles with white metal bearings. (roller bearing cranks are less affected by this but there are so many other disadvantages with them). EX AFRICA SEMPER ALIQUID NOVI
SEMPER IN FAECIBUS SUMUS SOLE, PROFUNDUM VARIAT
with kind regards
George Bosch
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
2003 Range Rover Td6
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi (sold)
And some more serious stuff
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23rd Aug 2012 8:10 am |
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hgbosch
Member Since: 25 Oct 2010
Location: Pretoria and Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 188
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NJSS wrote:Quote:We suspect that over time, bearing wear (they get thinner) gets them to start turning during cold start, when there is no adequate protection.
This, and cold start engine wear, could be reduced or eliminated by using an Accusump:-
http://www.accusump.com/accusump_tech.html#whatis
I am thinking of this, & will report findings.
NJSS
Hi NJSS
this could work, but for longer periods of non-action (i.e. 4 days plus), I cannot see how this could work, due to dissipation of pressure.
The K-Jetronic fuel injection system relies on a similar device to maintain system pressure when switched off. But this is only effective for about 12 hours. Operating principle is the same.
From our experience the only way to counter this problem is to reduce the cold start wear and tear and to this end we have found a solution here in SA that is effective.
On my wife's TDV6 oil analysis at 170'000km showed less wear particles than on an engine with only 60000km on it and which always had its services at 12000km. Both oil samples were drawn on the same day. EX AFRICA SEMPER ALIQUID NOVI
SEMPER IN FAECIBUS SUMUS SOLE, PROFUNDUM VARIAT
with kind regards
George Bosch
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
2003 Range Rover Td6
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi (sold)
And some more serious stuff
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23rd Aug 2012 8:16 am |
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amazing
Member Since: 05 Mar 2011
Location: chengdu
Posts: 1542
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tab less bearings are held in place by the crimping effect of being slightly oversize to the bore
they can be spun because of lubrication issues or clamping force issues (reducing the force required to rotate)
all plain bearings need to withstand the initial starting "dry" rotation loads until hydrodynamic lubrication takes effect. previously assisted by tabs or dowels and crimping load but now often just by the crimping load.
while oil is a major factor the crimping load should not be overlooked as if many bearings are left to run dry they just pick up then wear dramatically causing lots of nice knocking sounds without spinning
over reving can cause the caps to seperate (due to bolts stretching)allowing small movements of the shells
vehicles without cats benefit at the higher rev ranges and thus those higher ranges are "explored" more by owners causing a massive increase in tensile forces
e.g.
at 4000 rpm (original peak power point)the
Maximum Negative Piston Acceleration (MNPA): is about -1038g
Maximum Positive Piston Acceleration (MPPA): 589g
add a few more rpm
at 4200 these become -1144g and 650g
at 4400 these become -1256g and 713g
a massive increase in tensile load beyond the original design parameters -stretching bolts -reducing crimping load-allowing shells to be spun.
hence the question It is better to have and not need it then need and not have it.
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23rd Aug 2012 9:03 am |
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hgbosch
Member Since: 25 Oct 2010
Location: Pretoria and Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 188
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Unnecessary quote removed
Hi amazing
interesting points you raise here. But lets stay realistic.
The above points re: overrevving would bear merit in an engine which had been severely tuned/chipped, i.e. where the cut-off rpm has been raised to lets say 4600rpm.
If what you are implying above would hold true for the standard TDV6 engine, then this would provide an extremely fertile ground for a massive class action suit, the like of which could be compared to Ralph Nader's crusade against the Chevy Chevair. EX AFRICA SEMPER ALIQUID NOVI
SEMPER IN FAECIBUS SUMUS SOLE, PROFUNDUM VARIAT
with kind regards
George Bosch
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
2003 Range Rover Td6
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi (sold)
And some more serious stuff
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23rd Aug 2012 10:53 am |
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hgbosch
Member Since: 25 Oct 2010
Location: Pretoria and Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 188
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Hi guys
we have now had two pages of debate about this issue, but I am still desperately looking for:
1. Torque values for main and big end bearing cap bolts
2. Maximum permissible stretch on main and big end cap bolts
3. Piston to sleeve clearance new and maximum permissible wear limit.
4. Availability of pistons, conrods and bearings EX AFRICA SEMPER ALIQUID NOVI
SEMPER IN FAECIBUS SUMUS SOLE, PROFUNDUM VARIAT
with kind regards
George Bosch
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
2003 Range Rover Td6
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi (sold)
And some more serious stuff
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23rd Aug 2012 4:00 pm |
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al cope
Member Since: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 10289
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As the engine is used by other car manufactures, are the crank/pistons/bearings avaible from them??
Al Volvo XC90 B5 Plus Dark
Gone - MY18 D5 HSE - Corris on 22's with Black Pack
Now gone - MY16 D4 SE Tech, Loire Blue, Almond Leather, Privacy, plus some other goodies.
Old - MY12 D4 SDV6 XS Auto - Ipanema Sand with Almond Leather - Plus other niceties, and D4.com sticker
Older - D3 TDV6 XS Auto - Lugano Teal with Almond Leather, 20" Stormers, Shiny Tailpipes, DVD/TV - and obligatory D3 sticker
Ancient - D3 TDV6 S - Tonga with Ebony, 20" Stormers, satnav & DVD
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24th Aug 2012 7:55 am |
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hgbosch
Member Since: 25 Oct 2010
Location: Pretoria and Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 188
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amazing wrote:engine also known as DT17 as use by citroen/pug
does this help?
http://service.citroen.com/dtt/CDP/donnees...6_2005.pdf
HI AMAZING
THANK YOU!!!
this is EXACTLY what I have been looking for. EX AFRICA SEMPER ALIQUID NOVI
SEMPER IN FAECIBUS SUMUS SOLE, PROFUNDUM VARIAT
with kind regards
George Bosch
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
2003 Range Rover Td6
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi (sold)
And some more serious stuff
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24th Aug 2012 8:34 am |
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NJSS
Member Since: 06 May 2009
Location: Catherington, Hampshire.
Posts: 10464
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Good job Amazing - I must admit I thought that if JLR were tight lipped the other users of this engine would be too.
In the hope it may help, here are some more details of the appl;ications for the JLR AJD-V6 engine (named DT17 by PSA Peugeot Citroën).
2006–present Citroën C6 2.7 V6 HDi, 204 PS (201 hp/150 kW) and 325 lb·ft (440 N·m)
2008–present Citroën C5 2.7 V6 HDi, 204 PS (201 hp/150 kW) and 325 lb·ft (440 N·m)
2004–2008 Jaguar S-Type 2.7 DV6, 204 PS (201 hp/150 kW) and 325 lb·ft (440 N·m)
2005–present Jaguar XJ TDVi 2.7, 204 PS (201 hp/150 kW) and 325 lb·ft (440 N·m)
2008–present Jaguar XF 2.7D, 204 PS (201 hp/150 kW) and 325 lb·ft (440 N·m)
2005–present Land Rover Discovery Tdv6, 190 PS (187 hp/140 kW) and 325 lb·ft (440 N·m)
2006–present Land Rover Range Rover Sport Tdv6, 190 PS (201 hp/150 kW) and 325 lb·ft (440 N·m)
2005–present Peugeot 407 Coupé 2.7 V6 HDi, 204 PS (201 hp/150 kW) and 325 lb·ft (440 N·m)
2005–present Peugeot 607 2.7 V6 HDi, 204 PS (201 hp/150 kW) and 325 lb·ft (440 N·m)
2011–present Ford Territory 2.7 V6 TCDi, 190 PS (188 hp/140 kW) and 325 lb·ft (440 N·m)
Take "present" with a pinch of salt as I downloaded this list about 15 months ago.
Maybe more details might be available from, in particular, Peugeot, or Ford in Australia?
NJSS Am I Gammon or Woke ? - I neither know nor care.
2016 Discovery 4 Landmark
2011 Mercedes Benz SL350 (R230)
1973 MG B GT V8 - 3.9L John Eales engine, 5 speed R380 gearbox, since 1975.
1959 MGA roadster - 1.9L Peter Burgess Engine - 5 speed gearbox
Past LRs - Multiple FFRs, Discos & a Series I - some petrol, some diesel,
none Electric or H2 fuel cell - yet.
There are 10 types of people in this world: Those who understand binary, and those who don’t.
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24th Aug 2012 9:23 am |
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