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Baschurchbill
Member Since: 22 Jun 2011
Location: North Wales / Shropshire
Posts: 54
  
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ac wrote:There is a difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance...
One is legal, the other isn't! I'm all for the former and and don't know (m)any people who pay more tax than they need to.
Actually, my main reason for looking at the options here isn't actually tax avoidance, but affordability / justification of expenditure. Even without tax savings (if any), the D4 commercial potentially offers a cost effective route to buy a new D4 - especially if 'cheap' row 2 & 3 seats can be acquired. It also qualifies for an NFU discount, which the base GS no longer seems to.
You mirror my intentions & thoughts too. In actual fact the cost of buying a D4 commercial is higher than the car proportionally, so is only viable because of the tax treatment when used for business.
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 17th Aug 2011 1:32 pm |
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discocuzzy
Member Since: 02 Feb 2008
Location: surrey
Posts: 2752
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DG wrote:I am entitled to an opinion and I didn't mention you or others specifically  .....if you and others have worked within interpretation of the rules then that is obviously fine ......but I do take an impression that there are those who want to convert their commercials back to a 'normal' car with the intention of trying to get away with it and that really gets up my nose 
Im just in the process of doing this on a D3, however I have informed the insurance company that I have put rows 2 and 3 back in. "you cannot teach stupid people to do clever things"
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05 plate D3 HSE in Zermat- Gone
11 Plate D4 Landmark in Fuji white- Gone
08 Plate D3 Hse in Buckingham Blue- Gone
58 plate D3 HSE Silver- Gone
10 Plate D4 HSE Stornaway Grey
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| 17th Aug 2011 5:15 pm |
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Calcul@tor
Member Since: 08 Mar 2006
Location: Middle England!
Posts: 810
 
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What was the insurer's reaction? Any premium change / penalty? D4 XS MY12 Galway
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| 17th Aug 2011 5:31 pm |
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discocuzzy
Member Since: 02 Feb 2008
Location: surrey
Posts: 2752
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Didn't quibble or ask details, £450 including recovery and the wife to drive.
Cheaper than the D4 by £100.00 "you cannot teach stupid people to do clever things"
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05 plate D3 HSE in Zermat- Gone
11 Plate D4 Landmark in Fuji white- Gone
08 Plate D3 Hse in Buckingham Blue- Gone
58 plate D3 HSE Silver- Gone
10 Plate D4 HSE Stornaway Grey
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| 17th Aug 2011 6:05 pm |
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pom
Member Since: 10 Feb 2008
Location: Worcestershire
Posts: 1790
 
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Go for it. As long as your bean counter is happy thats all the matters. The rest is just hot air.
I'll be doing the same next tax year. I wasnt going to but as it gets up DG's nose I've changed my mind 
Should you happen to be the only person in the UK to have a seat count inspection then politely inform the seat counter that the seats are merely cargo and you have securely bolted them down for health and safety reasons.
Pom
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| 17th Aug 2011 6:07 pm |
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DrLex
Member Since: 15 Jul 2005
Location: Ciderspace [Oi be in Zummerset]
Posts: 4863
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ac wrote:There is a difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance...
One is legal, the other isn't! I'm all for the former [...]
I'd read that as meaning the latter of the initial sentence!
More on topic, I'd be surprised if the effort & expense involved in what you were proposing really resulted in much of a nett saving, even if you valued your time at zero. Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana
Member of Club Med Sucks
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| 17th Aug 2011 6:19 pm |
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pom
Member Since: 10 Feb 2008
Location: Worcestershire
Posts: 1790
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DrLex wrote:ac wrote:There is a difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance...
One is legal, the other isn't! I'm all for the former [...]
I'd read that as meaning the latter of the initial sentence!
More on topic, I'd be surprised if the effort & expense involved in what you were proposing really resulted in much of a nett saving, even if you valued your time at zero.
You save £7k vat for starters not to mention the benefit in kind, all expenses for servicing, tyres, toys etc. It's a no brainer if your circumstances fit. Obviously doesn't work for PAYE slaves but hey they get sick pay so screw them!
Pom
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| 17th Aug 2011 6:31 pm |
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discocuzzy
Member Since: 02 Feb 2008
Location: surrey
Posts: 2752
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To be honest I bought mine as a workhorse and to replace the Defender as its more practical and safer for the family.
I have put a full alpaca interior in it, door cards, dash etc,having it resprayed in a couple of weeks, and have putall the belts back in.
It was a cheap vehicle for me, the fact it was a van before didn't bother me and was irrelevant as I have informed the insurer it now has seats in the rear. "you cannot teach stupid people to do clever things"
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05 plate D3 HSE in Zermat- Gone
11 Plate D4 Landmark in Fuji white- Gone
08 Plate D3 Hse in Buckingham Blue- Gone
58 plate D3 HSE Silver- Gone
10 Plate D4 HSE Stornaway Grey
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| 17th Aug 2011 7:34 pm |
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kingofthesparks
Member Since: 02 Jun 2011
Location: Near Northampton m1 Watford gap
Posts: 429
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Main problem i see with resale is the need to charge vat, so that could put off many buyers and thus wipe out the savings at the end
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| 17th Aug 2011 7:55 pm |
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LiftedDisco
Member Since: 10 Jun 2010
Location: Towcester
Posts: 997
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Oh my sainted aunt... isn't the internet a wonderful place - so many opinions and yet so little time!
I have a commercial and I have seats... Atlantech seats...
Why?
Well the commercial bit is easy - I need to lug all sorts of kit around for site access - think theodolite, measuring staff, boots, wet weather gear and all the other delights that come with the job. Additionally, there is no way on earth you can get a car onto the Olympic Park and they seem to think that you can do the journey (with all the above clobber but on public transport...  ) whereas I can get a pass to get a van onto site - 'nuff said really!
But seats...? Well, like the rest of us, I occasionally get the panic call to collect kids from school. Yep, that's right, two kids but only one spare seat in a commercial. I have tried strapping the youngest to a pallet and calling him 'Cargo' but he insists this is not very comfortable and that his name is actually Charlie - I suspect Plod may not be too chuffed either...
So I have a commercial with seats... sinner!
Actually, the requirement is to retain the load carrying capacity and that any seats should be temporary - this is why we have used the company that does van conversions to crew cabs... we run 12 or so Vito vans with similar conversions and they are all deemed to be bona fide vans. More importantly, the HMRC website has clear confirmation on what constitutes a van and what you can and cannot do.
The other benefit does relate to the personal tax situation - I cannot comment on the OP's situation as I don't know the tax rules for partnerships and that is one for the bean counter. In my instance however, I used to run around in an Audi A6 with the seats down and the kit rolling around the back.
You have two options with a van - do company mileage only (allowing to and from place of work) and pay NO tax but this means that a trip to Waitrose for the morning croissants is well out of order. Alternatively, you pay the tax that goes with the vehicle, namely taxable benefit in kind of £3k for the van and £550 for the fuel benefit. Assuming that we all pay 40% tax, this works out at £1,200 per year for the vehicle and £220 for the fuel.
So, I am comfortable that I am paying the dues for the appropriate use of the vehicle and, equally importantly, am some £350 a month better off than had I opted to replace the Audi with a like for like (and the resulting personal tax bill).
Add to this the fact that the business can reclaim 100% VAT means that the D4 is cheaper overall than the Audi as well.
I have said it before, but I would be uncomfortable about putting genuine LR seats back into the commercial as this is rather too much like reverse-engineering the car and I believe negates the above mentioned benefits. The commerical is a nice bit of kit, but is not comparable with the car version and there are some compromises to be made (no airbags for rear passengers for example) and each person needs to consider the various options.
Personally, I need something to carry site kit, possibly tow a horse trailer and which also gives the right corporate impression... however, we have full certificate of conformity from Atlantech for the seats and the insurers have been informed accordingly...
Phew, hope this helps someone out there! D4 Commercial - 65 Plate, 2016MY
D5 Commercial - Handed back when I left that job…
D4 Commercial (2014MY) - gone
D4 Commercial SDV6 - Baltic Blue (also gone)
D1 300TDi... 2" lift, HD bumpers (both), detachable tow hitch, 9,500lb winch, 235/85/16 muds and plenty of other toys (gone to make way for the next toy...)
Smiles per Mile - Tornado Motorsports caged Evo 3... 100" Defender look-alike, with Range Rover running gear - all fully IVA'd and registered!
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| 17th Aug 2011 9:04 pm |
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pom
Member Since: 10 Feb 2008
Location: Worcestershire
Posts: 1790
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discocuzzy wrote:To be honest I bought mine as a workhorse and to replace the Defender as its more practical and safer for the family.
I have put a full alpaca interior in it, door cards, dash etc,having it resprayed in a couple of weeks, and have putall the belts back in.
It was a cheap vehicle for me, the fact it was a van before didn't bother me and was irrelevant as I have informed the insurer it now has seats in the rear.
I plan to do exactly the same. Lots of d3 and 4's breaking now to strip bits off.
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| 17th Aug 2011 9:57 pm |
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DG
Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934
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pom wrote:as it gets up DG's nose
Not as much as your pasty make-up and dodgy haircut fella  
anyway ....off to throw another grenade .........somewhere  21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
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| 17th Aug 2011 10:17 pm |
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Calcul@tor
Member Since: 08 Mar 2006
Location: Middle England!
Posts: 810
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kingofthesparks wrote:Main problem i see with resale is the need to charge vat, so that could put off many buyers and thus wipe out the savings at the end
Not really.
Say a vehicle new costs £39,600. As a commercial deal, that's £33,000 + VAT. So private buyer pays £6,600 more than commercial buyer for the same vehicle.
Some unspecified time later, it is sold for say, £20,400 by the private buyer. His depreciation is £19,200.
The commercial buyer sells his for £17,000 + VAT, which just happens to be £20,400. After all, these cars are the same spec, age, mileage etc. His depreciation is £16,000 net, which is obviously £19,200 including VAT. D4 XS MY12 Galway
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| 17th Aug 2011 11:12 pm |
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Calcul@tor
Member Since: 08 Mar 2006
Location: Middle England!
Posts: 810
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DG wrote: ....off to throw another grenade .........
 D4 XS MY12 Galway
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| 17th Aug 2011 11:45 pm |
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Baschurchbill
Member Since: 22 Jun 2011
Location: North Wales / Shropshire
Posts: 54
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The reason I chose genuine LR seats, which occuply exactly the same space as the Alantech ones, is so there is a proper match with the front ones & I guess ignoring my foc labour will cost about the same & I will still comply with all the HMRC & other rules.
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| 18th Aug 2011 7:41 am |
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