Health and Safety, Political Correctness..... Tide Turning??
This is a very sad tale and nothing here should detract from the sad loss of a toddlers life.
In 2004, a two year old toddler was found (dead) face-down in 18" of pond water in a Welsh holiday park. His parents successfully sued the park owners (presumably for negligence on health and safety grounds). They were awarded £25k in compensation + costs.
The judge in the original case said that the holiday company should have specifically warned holidaymakers of the potential hazard posed by the ponds on their site. Of course, there was nothing said about parents allowing a two-year-old unsupervised access to a pond.
Today, the court of appeal has quashed the original ruling and told the parents to pay-back £40k (including the costs)!
The statement from the appeal judge, Lord Justice Stanley Burnton said: "This was a tragic case and Matthew's death has been understandably devastating for his parents.
"But accidents may and do happen to young children without anyone being at fault."
Could the PC blame culture finally be at an end?
Welcome to the new age in personal responsibility - for yourself and your offspring.The older I get, the more I realise that people confuse wrinkles for wisdom
Founder member of Club FFRRV
Club Orange, Mint or Fruit
Club Walnut Sniffers
13th Jul 2009 4:53 pm
alanwxr
Member Since: 19 Nov 2006
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 306
Let's hope so!
Over the top 'elf and safety and political correctness is destroying the way of life in this country.
13th Jul 2009 5:19 pm
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50936
Member Since: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 10299
DG - if someone has cocked up or is negligent, then they should be liable to a claim, but in to many cases some personal responsibilty has to be held. I know nothing about this case, and has already been said, its a tragedy to lose a child, but the first question that popped into my head was "where were the parents".
Time and time again when we've been on sites, we see parents sitting at the bar/pool with no clue whatsoever as to what their kids are up to, and then when something happens, its somebody else's fault.
OK - I'll get off my soapbox now.
AlVolvo XC90 B5 Plus Dark
Gone - MY18 D5 HSE - Corris on 22's with Black Pack
Now gone - MY16 D4 SE Tech, Loire Blue, Almond Leather, Privacy, plus some other goodies.
Old - MY12 D4 SDV6 XS Auto - Ipanema Sand with Almond Leather - Plus other niceties, and D4.com sticker
Older - D3 TDV6 XS Auto - Lugano Teal with Almond Leather, 20" Stormers, Shiny Tailpipes, DVD/TV - and obligatory D3 sticker
Ancient - D3 TDV6 S - Tonga with Ebony, 20" Stormers, satnav & DVD
13th Jul 2009 5:44 pm
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50936
I know all that and don't disagree TBH...but mark my words, if anyone is unfortunate enough to experience it ...regardless of any personal liability ...you will want someone else to blame It's not necessarily about the money ....it's human nature 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
Agree that may be the natural reaction, but why does "blame" usually translate into hard cash?
13th Jul 2009 8:58 pm
Rescue01
Member Since: 14 Jan 2008
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 2434
DG wrote:
Until it's you who wants to claim
Thats what bad parents do.
A two year old should have never have been out of supervision.
No excuse.Its not the height of the fall but the sudden stop at the bottom that hurts!!
13th Jul 2009 11:49 pm
Dexter
Member Since: 21 Sep 2007
Location: Aberdeenshire
Posts: 1391
Very sad indeed and I agree that there are no excuses for unsupervised toddlers - in an ideal world. We have a three year old who's main mission in life to be unsupervised and he can run fast!
Perhaps the logic of an unprotected pond located in a family holiday park should be considered as the surely the first step of risk control is to remove the hazard completely wherever possible. I could happily live without a pond or have it barriered off if it would have prevented this sort of tragedy.
Dex
14th Jul 2009 10:46 am
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50936
Rescue01 wrote:
Thats what bad parents do.
A two year old should have never have been out of supervision.
No excuse.
You are missing my point. Even the most rational person will want recompense ...whether that be via compensation or by other means of punishment. This happens in every aspect of life that they might be aggrieved in ...as I said it's human nature.21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
14th Jul 2009 11:00 am
Fleagle_UK
Member Since: 10 Jul 2009
Location: England
Posts: 86
and at what point do we stop wrapping our selves in cotton wool in case we get hurt ?
Ok - today lets fill in any public accessible water....ponds etc
Tomorrow lets chop all trees down incase they fall on our little ones
The day after, lets ban all swings and slides incase they fall off them
Then lets ban dangerous sport (aka football , rugby cricket) incase little kiddie get a ball in the face
The day after that, lets ensure all kiddies are tagged with transponders at birth so we can find them after negligent parents have let them run off.
.
etc
etc
etc
The world is dangerous. period. Yes - abosolutley tragic what happened to the child - no argument there. But the risk/life balance is getting saddly wrong in this country.
I also disagree it is human nature to blame some else. I for one dont believe that . If I make a mistake ...like tripping up over a pot hole.....I put my hand up and say, you know what ? - that was MY FAULT.
The law was changed just over 10 years ago to allow "claim compensation culture" companies to proliferate. That was a sad day for british society. The truth is that health and safety gets blamed for a lot....when really it is greed....and it is usually (not always) a certain element of society.
I often think parents should have to sit and pass some type of exam to prove they are fit to be a parent before conceiving. Whereas sadly, it seems the only qualification needed is what nature biologically equiped man and woman with.
The first goverment that stands up and says ...from now on, personably responsibility is the new polical correctness - gets my vote!
Last edited by Fleagle_UK on 21st Mar 2012 6:08 pm. Edited 1 time in total
14th Jul 2009 11:28 am
caverD3
Member Since: 03 Jul 2006
Location: Oberon, NSW
Posts: 6922
I actually agree with DG.
It does not make it right but it is in our nature is to blame someone else. (wasn't me it was the dog, the cat, my brother my sister...you get the idea, remember when you were a kid?) as we grow up we learn ethics and morals which control our tendency to do this.
When money is involved then anther part of human nature is involved.....greed. “There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely gamesâ€
Ernest Hemmingway
D4 3.0 Active Diff, Adaptive Lights, High Beam Assist, Surround Cameras, Privacy Glass.
D3 2.7:Adaptive Headlights,Electronic Rear Diff,ARB Bar,Blaupunkt Speakers,JVC Powered Subwoofer,Removable Snorkel,Mitch Hitch,Pioneer After Market Head Unit,Steering Wheel Control Adaptor,Remote Adjustable Supension Rod System, Taxside Dual Battery System.
14th Jul 2009 12:48 pm
Fleagle_UK
Member Since: 10 Jul 2009
Location: England
Posts: 86
caverD3 wrote:
I actually agree with DG.
....as we grow up we learn ethics and morals which control our tendency to do this.
Indeed..well, some of us do. "I didnt do it, it wasnt me, I wasnt there, nobody saw me do it" - Psychologists call this "adaptive child behaviour". I still disagree though that it is "nature" that makes us this way....I think you are confusing this with the self presavation instinct that is indeed imprinted on our synapses from birth.
The fact is that the child brain is a sponge - it knows almost nothing at first but quickly grows and behaves according to the influences / ethics / morals that it is brought up around. If the childs parents behave in such a way (blame anyone but themselves) then there is a good chance the child will do the same as it goes through life until that child themself becomes a parent and so that belief system / ethic promlugates.
We all know and love our children but I firmly believe the best defence against them getting seriously injured (or worse god forbid) is education either by teaching or by them learning the hard way (within reason of course!). Merely hiding them from all the worlds thorne bushes / ponds / flames / big dogs etc means they are poorly equiped in the future to truely evaluate risk.
Last edited by Fleagle_UK on 21st Mar 2012 6:08 pm. Edited 1 time in total
14th Jul 2009 1:18 pm
AndrewS Tarquin of the Desert
Member Since: 06 May 2005
Location: Y...... because I can
Posts: 10438
Wot he ↑ says :thumbsupIn the Beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
To the original question - probably too early for one case to be the indicator of a change of approach...but you never know...
My sentiments are that we as parents are responsible. Not always - depends on what the circumstances are. But common sense should prevail.
In this case the judge's comments seem to be driven by a common sense/pragmatic view.
As for "children should never be out of parents sight" that is all well and good when typed...reality (and the very nature of active children) means that it is not always possible. In this case the broader story was that the two kids were out of the parents sight for a split second (why...? who knows. it doesn't matter. We all get distracted. The phone rings; the kids turn a corner - they're gone and you won't know which way to go to chase after them).
Some years ago we turned up at my in-law's house in barcelona after a 10 hour drive. Get out of the car, stretch, and before there is a quick hello to the in-laws at the driveway our (then) 3 year old has dived out of the car at full speed and launched himself fully clothed into a very deep swimming pool in the garden...went round 4 adults and two other boys. Thats how quick and easy it is.
But surely the "blame" culture has to stop - as long as it is not warranted. Because sometimes it is.The next American ex-pat that calls it a "truck" is going to find out what 2.7 tons feels like on their foot...
Club "yes, I too have had the EGR's replaced..."
Club "yes, I too have had the compressor replaced..."
Club "yes, I too once had the car at the dealer for a couple of weeksnearly 4 weeksover 4 weeks...5 weeks"
Club "yes, I too have had EPB failure..."
Club "yes, I too get mysterious bings and bongs..."
We all know and love our children but I firmly believe the best defence against them getting seriously injured (or worse god forbid) is education either by teaching or by them learning the hard way (within reason of course!). Merely hiding them from all the worlds thorne bushes / ponds / flames / big dogs etc means they are poorly equiped in the future to truely evaluate risk.
Neil.
Falling out of trees, olympic standard nettle rash, jumping across (into) rivers and streams, riding no hands down a gravel track, potting rabbits with an air rifle, throwing horse pooh at your mates, pumping up a lemonade bottle from a compressor to see how far it will fly.... All essential skills I've been pleased to pass on to my 9 year old daughter. As one of my (many) t-shirts says: "I do my own stunts"I know it's not considered "kind" to say no these days, but no. Just no, ok? And if it's not ok, still no.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
It's not necessarily about the money ....it's human nature 
. If I make a mistake ...like tripping up over a pot hole.....I put my hand up and say, you know what ? - that was 
The law was changed just over 10 years ago to allow "claim compensation culture" companies to proliferate. That was a sad day for british society. The truth is that health and safety gets blamed for a lot....when really it is greed....and it is usually (not always) a certain element of society.
(within reason of course!). Merely hiding them from all the worlds thorne bushes / ponds / flames / big dogs etc means they are poorly equiped in the future to truely evaluate risk. 
