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Installing 2nd battery ?
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drivesafe
 


Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867

Australia 

Hi folks, we have been somewhat busy over the last few months but I am now making this a full time priority.

The biggest advantage we have is that we were already working on an advanced Dual battery system before the D3 request came from LRA so a lot of development and testing time has already been carried out.

I would be interested in hearing form you on how you intend to use your dual battery systems and how you would like it set up in your vehicles and any optional operations you might think could be an improvement over existing systems.

To give you some idea of what we are working on and please note this may all change by the time it goes into production.

The unit being designed for the D3 and RRS will be a Plug-and-Play set up. There will be no holes to drill for wiring or screw mounts. We plan to use the existing available mounts in these vehicles and you will simply secure the new cables to the existing battery and to the new battery. The installation should be very simple and very quick.

Basic operation will be a Cut-Out voltage which isolates the two( 3 ) batteries. A Cut-In voltage and both an Over-Voltage and Over-Current Shut-Down designed to protect both batteries and the vehicle’s electrics.

One of the ideas we are working on is a second output from the unit that will be able to be used to either charge a third battery and / or power for accessories.

This second output will allow the second and third batteries to remain connected after the main battery ( and the vehicles electrics ) are isolated by the Cut-Out voltage. Once the second output voltage drops to a lower level then the third battery ( or accessories ) will then be isolated, protecting the second battery from being over discharged.

We are also planning on having a dual colour LED indicator that can be mounted in a number of places and indicate what state the system is operating at, which will also indicate if either the cranking and / or the auxiliary batteries are in need of charging.

Cheers and any input would be welcome. Idea
 2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7  
Post #5500926th Apr 2006 7:13 pm
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RLD
Uncle Ray 


Member Since: 18 Jul 2005
Location: all ways some where
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United Kingdom 2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto Zambezi SilverDiscovery 3
Dual Batteries

Hi i would like to use it for a fridge National Luna and may be the winch .
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Post #5501026th Apr 2006 7:28 pm
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drivesafe
 


Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867

Australia 
Re: Dual Batteries

RLD wrote:
Hi i would like to use it for a fridge National Luna and may be the winch .


Hi RLD, I have never had a winch on any of my vehicles but the present way of installing a winch set up is to have it connected to the main battery and to have the vehicle running all the time the winch is in use.

Others, more experienced in winch use, on the site can probably give you more info on winch set ups and operation.

As for the fridge, this is probably the main reason most dual battery set ups are installed and ours will have the advantage of not allowing the fridge to over discharge the battery so it will stop either battery being damaged even if the fridge does not have a low voltage cut out.

Cheers.
 2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7  
Post #5501326th Apr 2006 8:05 pm
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Penguin
 


Member Since: 02 Dec 2005
Location: A fun place
Posts: 485

Belgium 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Manual Chawton WhiteDiscovery 3

if you have the LR Winch fitted, it can only work if the engine is running and no 2nd battery is needed.
Unless you will winch very often/day, as an engine running on low rpm (ralentis) is not enough for the alternator give enough power to the battery + winch. So yes you drain your battery even if the engine is running on low rpm.

As for fridges, most descend models stop working before the battery is drained completly, that is what a waeco does. It even goes on low power mode before it realy cuts.

The most hany about the fancy splitchargers is you can switch them over to use the 2nd battery as starter battery.

In general, you don't need a second battery if you fear to have a drained battery if you don't use your car for a week or 2 (IT WONT) , you do want it to use things like fridges, compressors, lights, power convertors, ..., and then you do need the 2nd battery in order not to drain the start battery.

Also the 2nd battery should be a DEEP CYCLE battery, so it can give maximum power at a maximum time, wich is very different from your start battery, as this is made to give HIGH power (current) for a short time (power the starter engine)
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Post #5501526th Apr 2006 8:32 pm
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christyler
 


Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 1168

Ireland 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Auto Zambezi SilverDiscovery 3
Battery Voltage

Unnecessary quote removed

I have been reading these posts regarding the battery charging voltage being 13.5 to 15.7, I found this quite strange, Firstly the battery in my D3 clearly states on it that it is a 12v battery. Also if the charging system was charging at 15.7 volts then all the in car equipment and lighting would also run at this voltage, not the case i think. Running electronics at this raised voltage wouldent present mutch of a problem but running 12v bulbs at 15.7 volts about 35% over there rating would cause a vast reduction in the bulbs life, somthing i think that would have become apparent by now, to owners.
So, i went an measured my D3's battery voltage with a very accurate voltmeter, the result was as i suspected the battery voltage was 12.7volt with the engine off and 13.7volts with the engine running at tickover. I could not test it at higher rev's because i was on my own at the time. I am pretty sure the results would be the same. The normal charge voltage for nealy all cars is 13.8volts this can vary up or down a volt or two depending on charge state of the battery being measured
  
Post #5501826th Apr 2006 9:03 pm
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Penguin
 


Member Since: 02 Dec 2005
Location: A fun place
Posts: 485

Belgium 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Manual Chawton WhiteDiscovery 3

in a modern car, the power comming from the battery, via the alternator, is behind a regulator.
It's even so that at some power points you can't get enough current to power a fridge for example.

But I do agree, I don't see a point in why to have 15V and not 13.5V to charge your battery.

And again, when your engine is running at low rpm (how do you call it when the engine is running without hitting the throttle??) your battery will not be charched, unless you cut all power to ecu, radio, ...
 In a time of chimpanzees, I was a penguin.


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Post #5502226th Apr 2006 9:10 pm
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christyler
 


Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 1168

Ireland 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Auto Zambezi SilverDiscovery 3
Battery Charging

Unnecessary quote removed

I think the phrase you are looking for is "Tick Over". There is still an amount of charge going into the battery even on tick over. when i can get someone to help i will measure it with the engine reving.
  
Post #5502326th Apr 2006 9:18 pm
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Tony
 


Member Since: 20 Apr 2006
Location: Adelaide Hills
Posts: 183

Australia 2005 Discovery 3 4.0 V6 Petrol S Auto Zambezi SilverDiscovery 3

G'day drivesafe,

Can you let us know where you got the 15.7 volt? Like christyler, I've measured the voltage with a Fluke digital meter immediately after starting, when it would be expected that charge rate would be high, and it shows 13.9v.
This is of interest to me because I will be running some electronic equipment and 15.7 is very near it's maximum input.

Thanks,
Tony.
 Ex Defender 110 200Tdi owner.  
Post #5503026th Apr 2006 10:12 pm
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drivesafe
 


Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867

Australia 

Hi christyler, first off, the operating voltage figures were provided to me from Land Rover.

Next by “ tick over “ don’t you mean at Idle speed.

As for electronics in vehicle, most of the computers run at 5 volts and have built in voltage regulators so they can usually take MUCH higher input voltages. Buy the way, check your computer you installed in your D3. Most of the electronics in it runs on 5 volts. Also, many mobile phones run on only 3 volts but allow you to charge them of all sorts of voltages. Your entertainment equipment will still be regulated but at higher voltages so again the the higher voltage will have no effect

Automotive light globes may be called 12v but they are actually designed to operate at their optimum, at between 14 to 15 volts so 15 .7 is only marginally higher. One more unrelated point, automotive globes will last long when supplied with 14v rather that 12v

As for the actual voltage level that is being turned out on these vehicles, as explained earlier in this post, there are a lot of variables that the vehicle’s monitoring system is continually looking at and the voltage level is based on what the vehicle sees as being needed to meet the vehicles requirements.

Last but not least, almost all automotive batteries require a minimum voltage of 13.8 volts to be able to fully charge them and should not be allowed to have a continuos charge voltage higher than 14.7 as this will damage the battery. As Penguin posted, you are not going to get a high voltage reading at idle, Once the initial start charge is replaced, most vehicles will have an operating voltage of 14 to 14.3 volts

One of the exceptions to this is the Calcium/ Lead calcium battery, as used in late model D2s, all D3s and RRSs.

In given conditions, these batteries can be charged from 13.5 volts to 15.7 volts without being damaged.

The problem is that the D3 and RRS electric's are set up to work with calcium batteries and by putting any other form of battery in this system, can cause a “ Conflict of Interest “ situation. The main intention of our unit is to isolate the auxiliary battery(s) when there is likely to be a “ Conflict of Interest “ situation and therefore protect both the batteries and the vehicle.
 2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7  
Post #5503826th Apr 2006 10:49 pm
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Tony
 


Member Since: 20 Apr 2006
Location: Adelaide Hills
Posts: 183

Australia 2005 Discovery 3 4.0 V6 Petrol S Auto Zambezi SilverDiscovery 3

Thanks drivesafe, that's answered my question.
There is a bit of info re lead/calcium batteries at:

www.landiss.com/battery.htm

Cheers, Tony.
 Ex Defender 110 200Tdi owner.  
Post #5504126th Apr 2006 11:00 pm
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christyler
 


Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 1168

Ireland 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Auto Zambezi SilverDiscovery 3

Unnecessary quote removed

Sounds like a great piece of equipment, how exactly does the "conflict of Intrest" sensor work ?
  
Post #5504226th Apr 2006 11:14 pm
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drivesafe
 


Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867

Australia 

The unit is based around a microprocessor and does a lot of math, to continually monitor both the voltage and the current.

BTW, it the math needed to work with the current monitoring that is the hold up.

Cheers
 2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7  
Post #5504426th Apr 2006 11:26 pm
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Jamo
 


Member Since: 18 Jan 2006
Location: Esperance, Western Australia
Posts: 1170

Australia 

Drivesafe,

I've currently got the winch connected to the main battery; and the fridge connection, satphone and UHF radio connected to the Aux battery (a 44ah Odyssey 1200); using a TJM controller thingo.

I'm interested in your system when it's available, so that I can be sure I'm not damaging the car and so that I get the best out of having the dual battery.

I moight even look at a three battery setup.

Jamo
 Have a nice day!
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2005 HSE D3 (Sold) 
 
Post #5505127th Apr 2006 5:37 am
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Penguin
 


Member Since: 02 Dec 2005
Location: A fun place
Posts: 485

Belgium 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Manual Chawton WhiteDiscovery 3

Yes Idle speed is what I meant Wink

You must always split your main battery from your 2nd battery
This is done with a splitcharger.
I got a simple one, and costs about 50€/$.
It makes sure your main battery is charged first, before charging the 2nd one, and prevents from draining the main battery via the 2nd battery.

On more expensive models, you'll get some meters to display the battery status, and on the top models you can "swith" battery's. So in case your main battery is dead, you can start on the 2nd, or if the 2nd is dead, you can use the main for the fridge for example.

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?Module...doy=search
 In a time of chimpanzees, I was a penguin.


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Post #5505427th Apr 2006 6:30 am
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Robbie
 


Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
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United Kingdom 2013 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 HSE Auto Baltic BlueDiscovery 4

My main desire is to power a fridge for an extended period, plus the odd minor item. But I have been let down by a number of cars when I have left them for a few months (I'm military and sometimes I don't know when the next war is coming from). The Land Rover dealer was honest enough to say that the car can run itself flat after a few months. Indeed, that was the case with my car pre-test drive.

I suppose my situation is a little extreme for the average UK driver. I may do 3 or 4 starts of the engine, as I move around my base, in quick succession, before parking the car. When I park it at work I do not know if I will be back in days, weeks, or even a few months.

My assumption is that I can, on occasion, take a big load out of the battery and then not charge it properly before leaving it for an extended period.

Please reassure me that a second battery would help?
  
Post #5507427th Apr 2006 8:14 am
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