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jkp
Member Since: 17 Sep 2005
Location: Living among Bawbags
Posts: 4528
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Having read the comments on here, I would agree that simply being in a battle of words with LR or the dealer will not be enough.
The next step, albeit a dragged out one would be to commission an independant engine inspection and gain a report on what caused the failure. This can then take on the basis for any legal action.
Maybe last year in the boom times of LR, the goodwill gesture may have been a fallback, but in these Pi$h economic times and every penny a prisoner for business, goodwill no longer exists.
I hope he gets a good outcome.
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 30th Dec 2008 1:55 pm |
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DiscoStu
Member Since: 09 Apr 2006
Location: London
Posts: 11412
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And the fact that LR have to buy an engine from Ford as Ford no longer own them Disco 5 HSE Lux
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peyiqaJrmMU
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| 30th Dec 2008 1:57 pm |
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simonsi
Member Since: 14 Oct 2007
Location: Auckland
Posts: 1264
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Well said.
jkp wrote:I hope he gets a good outcome.
...but it probably won't be a perfect outcome for anyone involved...  Cheers
Simon
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| 30th Dec 2008 1:58 pm |
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simonsi
Member Since: 14 Oct 2007
Location: Auckland
Posts: 1264
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Whats the pic of - ain't a Disco or RR??
Ah! Just found the fine print that the pic is of a Ferarri  Cheers
Simon
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| 30th Dec 2008 2:08 pm |
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Smarticus
Member Since: 01 Jan 2005
Location: Northumberland
Posts: 655
 
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Apparently the engine has now had a "wet and dry compression test" at an independent garage. The results showed that there was in excess of 20% difference in compression across the 2 tests. According to the tester, this shows that the engine had manufacturing faults and therefore the source of its failure lies with the manufacturer. Land Rover UK however chose to interpret the results as showing that it was lack of maintenance that caused the problem. The independent tester was staggered at this response - and he has a long history of working with Land Rover in the past as a head technician in a Land Rover franchised dealer.
Does anyone know about these wet and dry compression tests and how to interpret the results ?
To my mind, regular oil level checks would simply have identified that the engine was faulty sooner. The cure would have still been the same - a new engine.
The ombudsman at the Federation of vehicle Manufacturers and Retaillers now is assessing the case and promise a result within 21 days.
Oh and the comment that "I find it bizzare that people like this suffer failures of this nature and look relentlessly to blame someone for it and when they can't they resort to bringing down the reputation of the marque" more than just a tad unfair. I really hope that you never suffer any bad luck or make a small mistake with large consequences. Disco 4 TDV6HSE
Defender 200TDi CSW
RR Evoque
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| 30th Dec 2008 4:16 pm |
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simonsi
Member Since: 14 Oct 2007
Location: Auckland
Posts: 1264
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Wet (oil introduced into the bores) and Dry compression test are to look specifically at piston ring problems.
In a good bore there will be only a small difference in the results as the dry rings provide a good seal.
If the result goes UP substantially with the wet test then it indicates that the dry rings alone are not providing a good compression seal.
There is some degree of interpretation of the results required and ideally you need to know what is expected in a good engine of the same type.
The test will only show you the current situation, it doesn't tell you what has caused the ring problem. For instance if you KNEW the engine had been properly maintained then it would be reasonable to conclude it was a manufacturing defect (but that would have presumably shown horrendous oil consumption from new in this engines case??).
As we know this engine had minimal oil in it at the point of failure it is possible that the ring failure is a result of the oil starvation, hence LR's position.
Go for the simplest story supported by the facts:
1.Insufficient oil in engine.
2.Reduced oil causes failure of ring seal on one or more bores.
3.Engine oil consumption rises.
4.Oil level further reduces.
5.Oil level remains unchecked.
6.Reducing oil level leads to gross symptoms and/or engine failure.
7.Oil level checked and found low.
Now unless this story is contradicted by eg evidence of oil leakage or burning of oil (smoke) then I would go with it. Note the damage to the ring seals may have started as soon as the engine was run after the service and would be exacerbated by short runs so it is entirely possible that a replacement engine was justified even if the lack of oil was discovered at the next weekly check. (I don't accept that it is a normal driver maint requirement to check the dealer has, actually, put the correct amount of oil in at the service, however prudent it may be to do so). Cheers
Simon
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| 30th Dec 2008 4:32 pm |
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simonsi
Member Since: 14 Oct 2007
Location: Auckland
Posts: 1264
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Smarticus, exactly what was the nature of the "bang" when the engine failed, was it catastrophic and if so have they said what failed, or was it huge loss of power, clouds of oil smoke??? Cheers
Simon
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| 30th Dec 2008 4:35 pm |
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DiscoStu
Member Since: 09 Apr 2006
Location: London
Posts: 11412
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When running without oil, the engine becomes vey hot. This warps the head and block (they are thin-walled to aid cooling as the engine runs hot anyway). Checking after the event will prove little - the compression seal may have been poor before, but there is no way to prove it. Disco 5 HSE Lux
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peyiqaJrmMU
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| 30th Dec 2008 4:55 pm |
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simonsi
Member Since: 14 Oct 2007
Location: Auckland
Posts: 1264
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DiscoStu wrote:When running without oil, the engine becomes very hot.
Thats why I asked the nature of the "bang" event. The D2 TD5 had strategies to cope with overheating (ask my how I know  ) to prevent damage, culminating in no throttle response at all. I'd expect the TDV6 to have similar/better so not sure if it would allow overheating to the point of warping damage  Of course this means the driver can drive for longer on an ailing engine in any case.... 
Agree fully that it is difficult to prove anything about the status of the ring seals before the "bang"... Cheers
Simon
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| 30th Dec 2008 5:01 pm |
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DiscoStu
Member Since: 09 Apr 2006
Location: London
Posts: 11412
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The engine block/head warp very quickly once overheated. Head gasket failures are normally a warped head, not a failure of the gasket. Disco 5 HSE Lux
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peyiqaJrmMU
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| 30th Dec 2008 5:10 pm |
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DG
Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934
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A rather topical entry in this weeks Times car clinic
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/c...314441.ece
Quote:Dear Tim,
I have a Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.7 V8, bought new by myself in 2001, serviced routinely but suddenly it developed a loud banging noise under the bonnet, further inspection has revealed the oil was empty (but no warning light had come on), the service was only 4,000 miles ago and I have not noticed any oil leaks under the car. The garage has advised that "the big end has gone and it will need a new engine"!, given the age of the car (Sept 2001 and 124,000 miles) what options and cost implications do I have?, is there a way to get it back running without the cost of a new engine?, thanks John
John Edmonds, UK
It is possible to change the big end bearing shells and polish or regrind the crankshaft, but that will still be quite expensive and at this mileage it seems a bit pointless not to carry on and do the rest of the rebuild. You could try a second hand engine as a cheaper option, but get a quote for the labour to change the engines over before you commit to buy another engine. If you go for a new engine, it will probably last another 120,000 miles, but bear in mind that wheel bearings and differentials are the usual weakness on the Jeep Grand Cherokee, so they will probably need replacing at some point as well. However, if you like the car, fixing this Jeep going is going to work out a lot cheaper than buying a new one. Do check the oil regularly though. 124,000 miles is a high mileage, whatever the engine, and high mileage engines will burn oil without necessarily leaking it. The oil warning light tells you that the oil pressure is too low, not the oil level. The dipstick is the indicator of the oil level. (Generally, by the time the oil pressure warning light comes on the damage is done – which is why I’ve never really seen the point of the light. Once upon a time we used to have oil pressure gauges, which would give you a guide as to the level of wear in the engine. The gauge was replaced by the cheaper light, but it’s not really very informative. However, even with a gauge to tell you the pressure, you still need to check the level and for that you look at the dipstick, at least once a week and, ideally, daily)
21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
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| 30th Dec 2008 5:56 pm |
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coachman
Member Since: 11 Oct 2008
Location: kent
Posts: 23
  
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Smarticus, I apologise if my tone seems unforgiving but I am afraid that when trying to maintain a fleet of commercial vehicles you become intolerant of this issue and the repercusions it has. Unfortunetly we have endured this problem before due to drivers not bothering to check oil/ water levels and trust me the costs are far greater when it happens to a commercial vehicle! I agree if an engine is burning excessive oil it should be dealt with by the dealer and if that means a new engine then so be it, but my point is the simple check would have stopped this from happening and he would still have been able to have the problem sorted under the terms of his warranty! I have noticed my own vehicle seems to consume oil more than previous Land Rovers I have had and as a result I keep an eye on it, the amount used is not alarming but warrants the check.
I would add that no one at this stage has any idea of how much oil was burnt in this engine and would draw attention to the diesel engines fitted to VW Audi vehicles that consume horrific amounts of oil until at least 30-35000 miles have been covered and then just stop using it (experience 3 cars from new)
Again, I don't want to upset any one it's just my view!
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| 30th Dec 2008 6:37 pm |
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Smarticus
Member Since: 01 Jan 2005
Location: Northumberland
Posts: 655
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simonsi wrote:Smarticus, exactly what was the nature of the "bang" when the engine failed, was it catastrophic and if so have they said what failed, or was it huge loss of power, clouds of oil smoke???
When accelerating up a steep hill the engine went loudly "whoosh" - a large plume of white smoke billowed out the back and the engine stalled. The vehicle was recovered and the garage said the engine had "blown" off various pipes due to high internal pressure. The engine then had the various pipes refitted by the servicing (but not supplying) dealer and it was then restarted. The engine now runs very roughly (sounds like the proverbial bag of hammers) and lacks power, but it can drive the vehicle. Disco 4 TDV6HSE
Defender 200TDi CSW
RR Evoque
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| 30th Dec 2008 7:08 pm |
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coachman
Member Since: 11 Oct 2008
Location: kent
Posts: 23
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From the description the pistons have picked up on the liners! this is a result of the oil jet from the con rod failing and the thrust face overheating and 'melting' against the bore. The usual result is as described where the engine will run either badly, noisily or both, it would also explain your wet and dry comp test results as the liners/pistons are now damaged and provide a poor seal, you may also find the engine to now have excessive crankcase pressure.
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| 30th Dec 2008 7:52 pm |
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