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Is Land Rover just a Bit 'Ratner' these days... Discuss!
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DAZ110
 


Member Since: 12 Jul 2017
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 74

United Kingdom 

Sold my Discovery 4, but still got my Defender. Whistle Mr. Green
  
Post #188263622nd Nov 2017 10:36 pm
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Red Merle
 


Member Since: 30 Aug 2014
Location: Liskeard
Posts: 7438

United Kingdom 

@tayaste:

The problem with being at the cutting edge of electronics, suspension and aluminium body construction is that there’s a lot to test and learn and nothing’s perfect. Having said that, over the 7 years and the 250,000 miles I’ve driven Land Rovers, they’ve been at least the equal of anything that I’ve had before and a lot better than many! Where they have got it wrong, Land Rover themselves have been great.

What does shock me is when I look at what underpins the modern Japanese 4x4 pickups. The drivers seem to love them, but some of the mechanical stuff (especially the suspension & 4 wheel drive technology) is straight from the 1950’s Shocked They really ought to be able to build it cheaply and reliably!
 2011 - 2015: 3 x FL2
2015 - 2017: 2 x D4
2017 to date: FFRR SDV8
2023 to date: FL2 as a second car

2021 to date: Hinckley built ‘14 Triumph Trophy 1200
2022 to date: Hinckley built ‘14 Triumph Trophy 1200 & sidecar!
(One of only two known to exist in the world!) 
 
Post #188263922nd Nov 2017 10:40 pm
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tayaste
 


Member Since: 15 May 2013
Location: Chester
Posts: 7633

United Kingdom 2008 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Stornoway GreyDiscovery 3

I Completely disagree. You must have driven some really bad cars in your time if it makes a LR seem like a reliable motor.
Do you really think that the cutting edge of electronics is from LR? Making suspension go up and down isn’t cutting edge.
Where are their hybrid / e motors? Other manufacturers have had them out for over 10 years now whilst jlr’s are still in the pipe line. Now they’re going to have to ‘catch up’
Compromising quality at the cost of introducing ‘technology’ isn’t good business practice. But they are getting away with it and as long as there are customers, naive or not then they will continue to churn them out regardless However, I do respect your opinion.
   
Post #188266423rd Nov 2017 4:47 am
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Red Merle
 


Member Since: 30 Aug 2014
Location: Liskeard
Posts: 7438

United Kingdom 

Some interesting points you raise which made me think.

I've had a pretty varied selection of cars since I started driving around 35,000 a year, as part of my job, in 1985:

Nissan Sunny, Vauxhall Astra, Montego's x 2, Ford (Transit & Focus RS), Citroen's (XM x 3, C5), Peugeot (405, 406, 505), Volvo V70's x 3, BMW MINI's x 2, Land Rover (FL2 x 3, D4 x 2 & FFRR) and probably some others that I can't remember just now!

Some have been really good (the Citroen XM's, the Peugeot 406 and the V70's in particular), some have been cr*p (Nissan Sunny and especially the Citroen C5), some have had appalling customer service (both Fords), but none of them have been any better than the Land Rovers have been.

As for making suspension go up and down, Citroen have been there for years with hydraulics (sadly, no more Big Cry so they have no reason to exist any longer), but LR pioneered air suspension in cars and fit it as standard, whereas those that have copied them usually have it as a premium option. Land Rover ran a hybrid option on the FF for 2 or 3 years and nobody bought it and it was discontinued about a year ago. There are now hybrid options on the FF and the Velar although nobody's got a remotely viable system for high mileage drivers yet.

New technology can be tested as much as a manufacturer likes but, to keep a lead on others, there's always going to be a push to get it out first and there'll be a learning curve for everyone, from the people who make the parts to the people that assemble them, write the software and then service them in the field. Of course, manufacturer's can always follow on when others have done the field testing, but Land Rover have been there first with (for example) air suspension on 4x4's, terrain response and fully aluminum bonded and riveted construction on 4x4's.

It may sound like I think Land Rover can do no wrong, far from it. I think Gerry McGovern is arrogant and near useless, whilst the D5 is his lowest point to date, but it's only fair to stick up for them where I think they've got it right Thumbs Up
 2011 - 2015: 3 x FL2
2015 - 2017: 2 x D4
2017 to date: FFRR SDV8
2023 to date: FL2 as a second car

2021 to date: Hinckley built ‘14 Triumph Trophy 1200
2022 to date: Hinckley built ‘14 Triumph Trophy 1200 & sidecar!
(One of only two known to exist in the world!) 
 
Post #188266823rd Nov 2017 6:38 am
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tayaste
 


Member Since: 15 May 2013
Location: Chester
Posts: 7633

United Kingdom 2008 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Stornoway GreyDiscovery 3

They are doing something right I agree, their cars are desirable. I just hope they do get their quality and reliabilty right soon. There's nothing more I'd like than to buy a new LR product, But, in the meantime I will have to stick to my Japanese cars for a daily driver as I cannot afford to have a car off the road for bugs, tweaks and repairs in my day to day life regardless if they're testing new technology, or to get it out there first.
   
Post #188267123rd Nov 2017 7:06 am
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flydive
 


Member Since: 21 Aug 2007
Location: Lugano
Posts: 1532

Switzerland 

sean 471 wrote:
Just a thought but the discovery is such more comfortable car than the defender and I wonder what the opinion was by some of the defender diehards on the discovery.


Well, you should have read the Rover Cars forum in 1948, when the Land Rover was introduced.

Man, they were really hating and killing it Wink
  
Post #188269323rd Nov 2017 9:37 am
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RRSTDV8
 


Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13030

United Kingdom 

I think the current products are, on the whole, excellent. The ability of these "living rooms on wheels" to get to places others can only dream of is astonishing at times. They are overpriced, in my opinion, particularly in the lower/mid range. I can see the FFRR Autobiography being big money - it's a fine halo vehicle. I don't see why Disco Sports should be £40-50k other than "because we can".

The real problem with LR is the aftercare. The dealers are, mostly, hopeless. The back up of the product by LR is largely "head in sand", fingers in the ears singing "lah lah lah". The need to go back in two, three or four times to sort out an issue is ridiculous. You know there's a problem when a common phrase used by disgruntled owners is "it's been at the dealers more than on my drive".

In summary, Land Rover sells a good quality product for a premium quality price with low quality aftercare.
 Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
2012 RRS SDV6
2008 RRS TDV8
"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!" 
 
Post #188271623rd Nov 2017 10:34 am
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LiftedDisco
 


Member Since: 10 Jun 2010
Location: Towcester
Posts: 997

United Kingdom 2016 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 Commercial Auto Barolo BlackDiscovery 4

An interesting thread and really rather close to my heart as I have had to place an order this afternoon for a hybrid Volvo...

Big Cry

I cannot credit that I’ve ended up doing this and have been trying to find a way to avoid this for the last three months or so - I’m currently in my second D4 (and have had 2 x FL2 for the Fun Prevention Officer) so you could suggest that I’m something of a die-hard Land Rover fan, indeed we’ve had Range Rovers etc in the family for 25+ years.

I’m also at odds with many others other there (certainly some of the Defender fans) as I actually believe that much of the current offering has merit — the reality is that businesses need to show a return and the sheer economics of designing and producing a complex vehicle means the fixed costs have to be covered somehow.

I have to say that the D4 has been every car that we need - fill it for the tip and even, as suggested elsewhere, lob an engine in the back but there’s always the option to wash it off for the posh evening out or the mad dash down through France to the Pyrenees; it really does do the lot.

The D5 is clunky and pretty darn ugly - it’s a nice drive and I nearly forgave it the ugliness (bearing in mind I’m inside when driving) but they don’t do it as a Commercial. Now, this is a problem - I keep being told that the D5 Commercial will be coming (I have even seen a sneaky picture...) but no-one can tell me when or, just as importantly, how much...

L663 as the Defender replacement is equally elusive - Nov 2019 as 20MY is what I’m being told but that’s a fat lot of use when my car needs changing in March 2018.

I did toy with the concept of the new RRS Hybrid as one of the key drivers is to keep the personal tax low but my MD looked at me like I’d asked to borrow his wife for a particularly steamy afternoon and wouldn’t countenance having a RR parked outside in the belief that this would send the ‘wrong message’ to clients and members of staff.

The fact that this would have cost less to run in terms of whole-life costs was lost on him and the tax bill on virtually any other JLR product would have added around £700 or more to my monthly tax bill.

So... whilst the vehicles may be OK to good, the technology is woeful - I would have been prepared to go down a size (we don’t need to tow horse trailers any longer...) and an Ewok hybrid would have been acceptable but, guess what, the East-West engine orientation isn’t currently part of the JLR hybrid approach, so there’s no chance of that happening for the Ewok or DS.

Likewise, I understand that hybrid L462 (D5) is also some long way off, potentially even as far as the launch of L663.

Why JLR, why?

So, after 8 years in a pair of D4’s, I’m off - with a heavy heart and in the hope that I might be back...
 D4 Commercial - 65 Plate, 2016MY

D5 Commercial - Handed back when I left that job…
D4 Commercial (2014MY) - gone
D4 Commercial SDV6 - Baltic Blue (also gone)
D1 300TDi... 2" lift, HD bumpers (both), detachable tow hitch, 9,500lb winch, 235/85/16 muds and plenty of other toys (gone to make way for the next toy...)

Smiles per Mile - Tornado Motorsports caged Evo 3... 100" Defender look-alike, with Range Rover running gear - all fully IVA'd and registered! 
 
Post #188328224th Nov 2017 9:29 pm
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Red Merle
 


Member Since: 30 Aug 2014
Location: Liskeard
Posts: 7438

United Kingdom 

That is a real shame Sad

The Volvo may, like most current hybrids, be deeply flawed, but their tax efficiency is hard to argue with. Until, that is, enough people have one and then the goal posts will move again to ensure that there's a steady flow of tax revenue.

I had to bite the bullet in 2014 and give up the company car in order to drive something that I'm happy with. It was a point at which it was either drive a 320d Touring on the company, or provide a proper car myself and take the mileage allowance and a revised package; this was a no brainer to me! It's even worse now, what with it not really being financially viable for a company to provide a car over 110g.

The delay in introducing the new generation Defender is unforgivable and it's a shame that a Range Rover is considered politically incorrect. It's something that I certainly had to check before I bought mine...

Good luck with the Volvo; as long as off road capability isn't vital, it's probably the closest thing out there to a proper replacement to the D4 Thumbs Up
 2011 - 2015: 3 x FL2
2015 - 2017: 2 x D4
2017 to date: FFRR SDV8
2023 to date: FL2 as a second car

2021 to date: Hinckley built ‘14 Triumph Trophy 1200
2022 to date: Hinckley built ‘14 Triumph Trophy 1200 & sidecar!
(One of only two known to exist in the world!) 
 
Post #188342125th Nov 2017 10:53 am
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tayaste
 


Member Since: 15 May 2013
Location: Chester
Posts: 7633

United Kingdom 2008 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Stornoway GreyDiscovery 3

Red, May I ask why you think most current hybrids are deeply flawed?
   
Post #188343125th Nov 2017 11:26 am
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ruben
D3 Decade 


Member Since: 26 Sep 2006
Location: ASTURIAS
Posts: 2378

2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Manual Tonga GreenDiscovery 3

I for being honest....and although I still like my D3 after more than 11 years with him, and having decided at the time not to change it for a D4 because it always seemed exactly the same car, despite what some said by then Whistle Whistle ,....
I say that now I do not have a D5 because.... I can not afford to buy it now, and I think many do not have it for the same sad detail, and that there is too much exaggeration in some opinions!!!

IMHO!!
 lost in translation!  
Post #188345925th Nov 2017 12:43 pm
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Red Merle
 


Member Since: 30 Aug 2014
Location: Liskeard
Posts: 7438

United Kingdom 

A fair question again tayaste.

To be fair, I did have the sole use of a Vauxhall Ampera in the early days and really enjoyed it, especially being able to make a phone call in complete silence at 70 mph and the surprising amount of acceleration to be had from electrical power alone.

Some examples of serious problems would be:

1. Budgeting for the huge cost of battery replacement once the batteries starting losing their efficiency. I know that the Vauxhall is obsolete, but nothing's changed that much and they were guaranteeing the batteries for only 7 years or 100,000 miles (that's only 3 years for me), beyond that the replacement cost was around £15,000, which was likely to put the car beyond economic repair.

2. The cars can usually only manage a short range on battery power alone (say, 30 or 40 miles), which has its uses but, even assuming that the driver is able to get to a convenient point to plug it in, will we always bother? We could start with the best of intentions, but are we really going to bother when we get home at night and it's dark, cold, windy and it's probably raining? Even if we get a space near to power outlet at work, will we bother if we're going to come through the door with a jacket and shirt wet and probably dirty, all to save a gallon of fuel? Considering many people complain bitterly about the very minor inconvenience of adding AdBlue, every 6,000 miles or so, I'm not hopeful.

3. Look out for those many able bodied and childless people who use the recharging spaces as an alternative to the disabled user's and family parking spaces. Best not to assume that they will be available.

4. When the batteries are depleted, again, many of these cars are going to be running on the power from a relatively small engine, probably petrol. Not only can that be an unpleasant experience (the Ampera's was a 1.4!), but the economy is usually nothing to write home about when it's running on fossil fuel, which it will be for much of the time.

5. My understanding is that cars like the Volvo will only drive one set of wheels from electrical power, when available, which will be the end of permanent four wheel drive (I could be corrected on this one though).

6. If the car hasn't been designed from the floor up to take batteries, then they usually impinge significantly on boot space.

7. Their towing capabilities can be limited.


Where hybrids tend to come into their own are for very low mileage vehicles. Our own estate here has a lot of retired folk, who use their cars very little; the noise from electric motors going us the hill became relatively frequent this year! For high mileage users, like me, the only benefit seems to be in the tax rates associated with the laughably misleading CO2 output claims Rolling Eyes
 2011 - 2015: 3 x FL2
2015 - 2017: 2 x D4
2017 to date: FFRR SDV8
2023 to date: FL2 as a second car

2021 to date: Hinckley built ‘14 Triumph Trophy 1200
2022 to date: Hinckley built ‘14 Triumph Trophy 1200 & sidecar!
(One of only two known to exist in the world!) 
 
Post #188346125th Nov 2017 12:47 pm
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tayaste
 


Member Since: 15 May 2013
Location: Chester
Posts: 7633

United Kingdom 2008 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Stornoway GreyDiscovery 3

What you are describing as negatives appears to come from the ‘plug in’ type of hybrid or full electric. And I tend to agree with some of your views.
However, I own two full hybrids that never require plugging in and have been fault free from the day they were new. There is zero maintenance from me required. Engines are not small both being 2.5 litre petrol, and will easily leave half the field behind on the road.
Battery longevity isn’t the problem people perceive with many a taxi running for many hundreds of thousands of miles still on the same unit.
http://www.hybridcars.com/toyota-prius-tax...l-battery/

I really can’t fault my hybrids, they just work, and I don’t have to plug them in, or keep my eye on the adblue.
I’m not sure you really understand the logic of a hybrid, it isn’t to see how many miles you get on battery alone, the idea of a hybrid is to utilise the two motors together, seamlessly.
They really have come along way, I have driven more than a dozen different hybrids and know about 200 people who drive hybrids, and I’ve yet to see one break down or cause a problem.

I think you should give one a try before you claim them to be flawed, I’m sure you’ll find them easier to live with than many other cars.
Less brake dust, longer life pads through regenerative braking, no starter motor, no alternator to go wrong. But most of all, they’re quiet.
   
Post #188346625th Nov 2017 1:09 pm
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Red Merle
 


Member Since: 30 Aug 2014
Location: Liskeard
Posts: 7438

United Kingdom 

Is yours the Mitsubishi?

I realise that my SDV8 will be my last hooray with a big diesel, but it does give me 6 or 7 years of breathing space for the legislators and manufacturers to sort their alternatives out, so I’ll watch and learn with interest Thumbs Up
 2011 - 2015: 3 x FL2
2015 - 2017: 2 x D4
2017 to date: FFRR SDV8
2023 to date: FL2 as a second car

2021 to date: Hinckley built ‘14 Triumph Trophy 1200
2022 to date: Hinckley built ‘14 Triumph Trophy 1200 & sidecar!
(One of only two known to exist in the world!) 


Last edited by Red Merle on 25th Nov 2017 1:46 pm. Edited 1 time in total 
Post #188347225th Nov 2017 1:46 pm
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tayaste
 


Member Since: 15 May 2013
Location: Chester
Posts: 7633

United Kingdom 2008 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Stornoway GreyDiscovery 3

No. Both of them Lexus
   
Post #188347325th Nov 2017 1:46 pm
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