DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Side airbags blew out cresting a desert dune

hernan1304

Member Since: 28 Feb 2008
Location: Dubai
Posts: 490

I was the one who posted sometime back that I was out with a group of cars and the airbags went off on a brand new Hummer H2. Unfortunately I don't know how the guy got this resolved, but I think this is a problem that's come up on more than one Hummer if you want to search online.

My 2 cents, in your case:

1) I definitely think that this should first and foremost be a Land Rover warranty issue. The airbags should go off if the car has an accident - there is no damage to your car, ergo no accident, ergo the airbags shouldn't have gone off. Period. It doesn't matter what you were doing, how steep the dune or driveway or how hard you hit the pothole. If your airbags have gone off and your car hasn't had an accident, it was an error and LR should fix it. I would push this all the way.

2) If you can't get anywhere with LR, I'm assuming your insurance has offroad coverage?

27th Apr 2009 5:37 am

DG
Site Moderator

Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934

I disagree .....the curtain air bags are designed to activate if the sensors believe that the vehicle is about to roll. The sensors take their values from various sources to ascertain if this is the case. Ultimately, there does not have to be an accident ....only for the criteria to be exceeded. In this case it sounds as though Squirrel was very fortunate to keep the motor upright.

21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021

27th Apr 2009 9:26 am

NoDo$h

Member Since: 02 May 2006
Location: Finding new and exciting ways to milk badgers.
Posts: 19689

But the systems aren't infallible.

There have been instances from most manufacturers of airbag deployment out of design range. A classic example was a side airbag deployment on a friend's C3 - his commuter car. A large stone came loose from between the tyres of the lorry in front of him, bounced along the road and came up under his OS sill, denting the sill. This, combined with the fact he was on a slip road with a pronounced left hand bend was sufficient for the roll and impact sensors to fire the side airbag sequence. Citroen washed their hands and told him to go to his insurers, they refused to pay as there was no accident. Dealer eventually backed down, but it took months and the issue of a court summons for the repair costs. Friend's solicitor took the view that they backed down as they didn't have confidence in persuading a court that the "acceptable deployment parameters" were reasonable, given the lack of risk to life and limb and the potential risks associated with early or erroneous deployment. I know it's not considered "kind" to say no these days, but no. Just no, ok? And if it's not ok, still no.

27th Apr 2009 9:57 am

DG
Site Moderator

Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934

I was disagreeing that deployment in the case of roll-over detection that there had to be an accident ND rather than the fact that airbags can be faulty which is a different matter altogether

21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021

27th Apr 2009 10:04 am

NoDo$h

Member Since: 02 May 2006
Location: Finding new and exciting ways to milk badgers.
Posts: 19689

Fair point sir.

I know it's not considered "kind" to say no these days, but no. Just no, ok? And if it's not ok, still no.

27th Apr 2009 10:07 am

hernan1304

Member Since: 28 Feb 2008
Location: Dubai
Posts: 490

DG - not saying there has to be an accident in order for the airbags to actually fire, but if they fired and the car stayed upright then surely as a customer you should be able to argue that this is a warranty issue because either a) the sensors were faulty, or b) they were not faulty, but the parameters to which they were set were too conservative.

I can't comment on the kind of situation that Squirrel was in, but in the case of the H2 deployment that I witnessed, it was during a routine descent that I had just done myself and that several others had done as well (Jeep, Land Cruiser, FJ cruiser, even a Fortuner).

Of course it's always better for the sensors to be too sensitive than not sensitive enough, but if they are too sensitive, I really don't think that it should fall to Squirrel to pay for this. Perhaps he almost went over, perhaps not, but in the end he didn't, so my opinion is that this should fall in LR's court.

27th Apr 2009 10:36 am

simon

Member Since: 11 Jan 2005
Location: Shropshire
Posts: 18296

2011 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 HSE Auto Fuji White

hernan1304 wrote:
perhaps not, but in the end he didn't, so my opinion is that this should fall in LR's court.

But if he did nearly go over (knowingly or not, as none of us were there we don't know) then NOT having the airbags deploy just before the roll would have been VERY bad for him and his passengers.

I would assume that a stunt driver doing that 'oh so clever' driving on two wheels, would have to disconnect the system. The D3 would think its going to roll but the skills of the driver would keep it upright.

The same could well have happened in the dunes.

Very hard to ascertain who is to cover the costs here (not inc the driver).

If it was about to roll then the system did what it was designed to do. So was not faulty.

27th Apr 2009 10:42 am

DG
Site Moderator

Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934

simon wrote:

I would assume that a stunt driver doing that 'oh so clever' driving on two wheels, would have to disconnect the system. The D3 would think its going to roll but the skills of the driver would keep it upright.

My thoughts exactly

. No matter what we think the RCM data will tell the ultimate story

21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021

27th Apr 2009 10:52 am

simon

Member Since: 11 Jan 2005
Location: Shropshire
Posts: 18296

And any active / passive safety system has to work to the lowest common denominator as far as sensor results go to play on the safe side. Else it would only catch some potentially hazardous events and not most. They could never catch all.

Bad luck IMHO not a fault of either vehicle or driver (who has no control over the parameters).

27th Apr 2009 10:57 am

caverD3

Member Since: 03 Jul 2006
Location: Oberon, NSW
Posts: 6922

2012 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 SE Auto Fuji White

Unless there was a fault. Never heard of it happening to anyone else. I would check with the dealer if it should have gone off. â€œThere are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely gamesâ€
Ernest Hemmingway
D4 3.0 Active Diff, Adaptive Lights, High Beam Assist, Surround Cameras, Privacy Glass.
D3 2.7:Adaptive Headlights,Electronic Rear Diff,ARB Bar,Blaupunkt Speakers,JVC Powered Subwoofer,Removable Snorkel,Mitch Hitch,Pioneer After Market Head Unit,Steering Wheel Control Adaptor,Remote Adjustable Supension Rod System, Taxside Dual Battery System.

27th Apr 2009 11:42 am

hernan1304

Member Since: 28 Feb 2008
Location: Dubai
Posts: 490

simon wrote:
I would assume that a stunt driver doing that 'oh so clever' driving on two wheels, would have to disconnect the system. The D3 would think its going to roll but the skills of the driver would keep it upright.

The same could well have happened in the dunes.

If it was about to roll then the system did what it was designed to do. So was not faulty.

Squirrel wrote:
It was quite a steep dune, and i took it at a 45 degree angle, rather than straight over.

No damage whatsoever to the vehicle, and the manouver was performed safely in every respect.

If he drove it at a 45 degree angle to the slope, his lateral angle couldn't have been that steep. Certainly not steep enough to constitute a rollover event. You'd have to be perpendicular to the slope of a particularly nasty dune to get an even close to bad angle. The maximum slope on the leeward slipface of a dry sand dune is about 34 degrees, and I know it didn't rain last weekend!

Considering the speed with which airbags are able to fire and fully inflate, I still think that they went too early. Airbags are fast enough to fire in a frontal collision - I don't think it's necessary for the curtains to fire as early as they seem to have done (even in the absolute worst of worst case scenarios, there's no way he was over 45 degrees, which means that they still had a healthy margin to explode with plenty of time to provide protection before the 90 degree angle was attained).

Guys, absolutely no offense meant and I respect your knowledge and experience tremendously, but I'd like to be able to help Squirrel rather than say it was his fault (or that fault cannot be determined). As far as I'm concerned, if he didn't crash or roll over, he shouldn't have to pay for damage. This is an offroad vehicle, after all.

Squirrel:

I think your answer lies in the owner's manual. This is from the section about the Supplementary Restraint System (ie. all of the airbags). I've put parts that I think are useful in bold:

Quote:
"Supplementary restraints system PRINCIPLE OF OPERATION
In the event of a collision, the airbag control unit monitors the rate of deceleration induced by the collision, to determine whether the airbags should be deployed.

Operation of the airbag SRS is dependent on the rate at which the vehicle's passenger compartment changes speed as a result of a collision. The circumstances affecting different collisions (vehicle speed, angle of impact, type and size of object hit, for example), vary considerably and will affect the rate of deceleration accordingly.
...

In the event of a severe side collision, airbags provide additional protection to the side of the head and body facing the impact for front seat occupants and to the side of the head facing the impact for outer rear seat occupants.

In your case, there was no collision! This goes against the principles of the SRS system, as defined by your owners manual.

Furthermore, it says:

Quote:
The airbag SRS is not designed to operate as a
result of:
â€¢ Rear collisions.
â€¢ Minor front impacts.
â€¢ Minor side impacts.
â€¢ Heavy braking.
â€¢ Driving over bumps or potholes.
It follows, therefore, that significant superficial
damage can occur without the airbags
deploying or, conversely, that a relatively small
amount of structural damage may cause the
airbags to be deployed.

Notice that it says a relatively small amount of structural damage can cause the airbags to be deployed, but it doesn't say that NO structural damage can cause the airbags to be deployed.

Finally, it says that

Quote:
Curtain airbags are designed to protect the
head in the event of a severe side impact or rollover
event.

A rollover event is a rollover, not an "almost rollover", or a "might have rolled over", or a "perhaps he would have rolled over", or "what if he had rolled over and his airbags hadn't gone off, would you have preferred that??", or a "but what if he's a stunt driver"? They may seek to argue any and all of the above...

I think you have a good case. If you don't get anywhere with Premier Motors, reach out to the LR regional office. They are very good in my experience.

27th Apr 2009 12:00 pm

hernan1304

Member Since: 28 Feb 2008
Location: Dubai
Posts: 490

Actually, on second thought, if you are a stunt driver this would probably void your warranty. Same if you were in "competition". I would steer clear from mentioning other cars that were with you and how they had no problems. It should have no bearing on your case.

27th Apr 2009 12:06 pm

simonsi

Member Since: 14 Oct 2007
Location: Auckland
Posts: 1264

hernan1304 wrote:
A rollover event is a rollover, not an "almost rollover", or a "might have rolled over", or a "perhaps he would have rolled over", or "what if he had rolled over and his airbags hadn't gone off, would you have preferred that??"

...but there needs to be an element of prediction, ie if the system needs to fire before the airbag is needed to ensure deployment then there always will be (unless you add in Windows-esque "are you sure" checking) a grey zone where the systems needs to assume worst case and will fire - even if in this instance something came along that the SRS couldn't predict or know about which in essence rendered its decision (with hindsight) wrong.

Bad luck to be caught in the grey zone, though, probably down to the driver/owner as with any other element of car expense that isn't anyones fault, be nice if there was a goodwill contribution though... Cheers

Simon

27th Apr 2009 12:20 pm

DG
Site Moderator

Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934

Hernan no one is seeking to blame anyone ...merely point out the system operation. If you look at the method of operation detailed in the GTR service information you will then understand that there does not have to be any impact or accident to set off the side curtains ...the vehicle merely has to guess that it's about to roll-over given the data available to it at the time. As I have said previously, the only way to validate whether it was a fault or the unit had reached the parameters is to check the data recorded in the Restraints Control Module.

You weren't there and neither were we so we can all only guess what happened. I am all for Squirrel not having to fork out for anything ...but equally LR could argue that it was doing what it had to do in the circumstance ....or admit it was faulty.

21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021

Last edited by DG on 27th Apr 2009 12:44 pm. Edited 1 time in total

27th Apr 2009 12:21 pm

hernan1304

Member Since: 28 Feb 2008
Location: Dubai
Posts: 490

DG - Definitely agree as to system operation, I know that what you and Simon have described is the method of operation of the system.

However, none of this is transparent to you as a consumer unless you are an avid forum reader. Your window of insight into the operation of your car, legally, is the owners manual. Therefore any argument that you make as a consumer (and any argument that LR makes in retort) should be on that playing field. RCM can say what it wants, but unless LR can prove that the RCM actually shows that the cause of the airbags firing was something that was described or at least allowed for in the owners manual, I think this grey area would have to be decided in Squirrel's favor.

27th Apr 2009 12:35 pm