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TdV6 Range Rover Classic
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Shackleton
 


Member Since: 15 Jan 2007
Location: East Coast
Posts: 10

Ireland 
TdV6 Range Rover Classic

Hi guys! Newbie here, wanted to pick some brains...

I've a '73 Range Rover, 600 miles ago I swopped the original 3.5 V8 carb unit for a late 3.9EFI version. It wasn't nearly as straightforward as it sounds but anyway now I've changed my mind and I want a new engine.

- a 2.7 TdV6 Disco 3 engine and a nice 6 speed auto box!

I know this sounds like big old can of worms to be opening but it's possible and in the words of Veruca Salt I WANT ONE!

There are obvious snags like the forward prop shaft comes out of the wrong side of the gearbox but I'm more worried about the electrics.

Is there anyone with good knowledge of the can bus system used who could tell me about what I will have to deal with and what electrics I can simply leave out?

I've heard of guys who've taken the Jaguar unit and put it in older land rovers whilst retaining R380 gearboxes or Lt77's so it's been done.

What do you think? Any hard info or feedback much appreciated.

Cheers

George
 1973 Range Rover, R1200C, Paul Smith Classic Mini LE  
Post #11985015th Jan 2007 7:59 pm
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Gareth
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Member Since: 07 Dec 2004
Location: Bramhall
Posts: 26702

United Kingdom 

Wow, the ultimate conversion maybe? I can't help you with the details, but admire you for wanting to try.

I am sure its possible, and if it works, I can put one in my Series 2a too Wink
  
Post #11985415th Jan 2007 8:02 pm
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LT
 


Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23369

United Kingdom 2016 Discovery 4 3.0 TDV6 Landmark LE Auto Santorini BlackDiscovery 4

With enough time & money anything is possible. I'd have to ask if it would be worth it though, as I'd imagine it would be very tricky & that you're correct in thinking that the electrics could well be the stumbling block.
I'd like to see such a vehicle though, would be great fun. Good luck.
Sorry I don't have anything helpful to say.
  
Post #11985915th Jan 2007 8:12 pm
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Chris200100
 


Member Since: 22 Mar 2006
Location: Nr Cardiff
Posts: 532

Wales 

I can't see why it can't be done, maybe worth getting the whole wiring harness and go from there, the main consern would be would it fit??

I'm looking into fitting a supercharged V8 into a defender 90 at some point when I get a defender.
 Focus ST500

Range Rover Classic

other modes of transport:- Volvo FM13 Globetrotter (13L 440bhp, 2200nm) nice new one

 
 
Post #11986015th Jan 2007 8:12 pm
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Martin
Site Admin and Owner 


Member Since: 06 Nov 2004
Location: Hook Norton
Posts: 18456

United Kingdom 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Manual Buckingham BlueDiscovery 3

Having done a Td5 conversion into my 90 - my advice is be prepared for a lot of expense as you'll have to buy a hell of a lot of new parts, and for people to tell you it can't or shouldn't be done Rolling Eyes

It's vital to prepare well - get hold of workshop manuals, wiring diagrams, electrical libraries etc etc for the TDV6 and work out in your mind how it all works in the D3

Physically installing it won't be the most difficult part (if it will fit), nor will getting all the vehicle systems (fuel, cooling, power steering, air con) integrated or otherwise into the RR. As you've spotted, the electronics will give you the biggest headache.

Remember that the TDV6 has never been installed by the factory into an RRC, unlike a EFi V8 or a Td5 into a Defender. You won't be able to buy factory parts which will fit with a bit of tweaking here and there, you may have to custom design and fabricate a lot of components.

I'm fairly certain that TDV6 engined Defender mules will have been built by LR, so it must be possible to run a TDV6 without a lot of the electronics, although LR may have used a special ECU which wasn't expecting a lot of the signals, and they would have had the support of the ECU manufacturers and the inside knowledge to get it to work.

You've picked the auto which will be more difficult again as this has its own set of inputs and systems to consider...!

It will almost certainly be a very long project, and you'll be doing a lot of stuff for the first time (as I did) so the answers won't be out there. Do the research using the technical information and gather as much information as you can from anyone who's done anything with the TDV6 or the Jaguar derivative.

I would almost be tempted to say that in comparison to the overall cost of conversion it might be worth buying a second-hand base model D3 and enjoying the engine and box in a vehicle fully designed and integrated around it whilst keeping the RRC as it is. Obviously, if the money and time isn't an issue then fair enough!

Finally, the very best of luck, and do keep us up to do with how you get on!
 06 D3 SE / 15 LR D90 XS SW / 88 LR 90 Td5 / 68 BMW 2000 ti
Any issues with the site let me know! 
 
Post #11986815th Jan 2007 8:27 pm
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Gareth
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Member Since: 07 Dec 2004
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Posts: 26702

United Kingdom 

Maybe, if you get hold of a D3 write-off (body damage) and remove the body from the chassis, then fit a RRC body to the D3 chassis.
  
Post #11996015th Jan 2007 10:51 pm
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karl
 


Member Since: 08 Jul 2006
Location: coventry
Posts: 200

United Kingdom 

Sounds great, if a little tricky! If you dont mind me asking, Where are said engine and gearbox coming from?

(if anyone goes out to thier D3 in the morning and there is a big empty space under the bonnet, we will know who to blame!) Laughing
 D3 TDV8 HSE on order, Should Arrive 2017. If i'm lucky.  
Post #12003516th Jan 2007 12:49 am
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Shackleton
 


Member Since: 15 Jan 2007
Location: East Coast
Posts: 10

Ireland 

Thanks everyone, and RE constructive comments, don't worry, the 'go for it' alone is encouraging! After the last conversion I know that thee most important thing is enthusiasm. Being able to get back out to the garage when you're felling like you wish you'd never started...

I'm still at the decision stage, to do or not to do... I believe it's possible and I'm a very determined kinda guy, stubborn is probably more fitting.

I'm with you RE lots of preliminary research, if I spend days in the garage I spent nights studying. Schematics, diagrams, photos (I must have taken 400 reference photos) and a crap load of reading and talking to specialists and experienced enthusiasts.

Thats where this falls down, the specialists - in the big picture - don't know enough yet and the enthusiasts are in the same boat. There's no Haynes and finding a contact for LR manuals seems like its gonna be hard.

The other thing is whereas I've been heartened originally by my contacts who've shoved the v6 into defenders, now I'm thinking they used the Jag version which (as mentioned) wouldn't be looking for as many signals from elsewhere. And RE the auto box, I originally wanted to keep the LT95 but then thought that cutting the auto out leave more signals that the engine wants missing, IE that using the auto would make things easier electrically. Plus the auto is gonna get the most out of the engine. RE A/C and P/S - don't have 'em, don't need 'em, don't want 'em. All I want is an almightily powerful lump that I can run bio fuels in, that gives decent returns on fuel and that will (with care) last more then 150k miles before demanding a comprehensive rebuild.

I'd kill for a whole written off D3, that would make things a lot easier, but RE dropping the RR bod onto the D3 chassis - firstly that would nullify my nice tax exempt chassis and secondly the D3 is on that new 'IBF' chassis/bod.

If any of you know where I might get a 'whole' write off it'd probably make the decision straight away... drive carefully Very Happy I'm the vulture overhead

Anyway the lump I've lined up is from a breakers, the car has already been broken so it's too late to get the whole thing, they'd just charge me full whack for each seperate part. Oh and in case you're wondering I'm not mega flush but as said this will take a while and funds will be available as the thing moves along. I did consider just getting a nice D3 but it's be too nice if you know what I mean, this is as much about the challenge plus I love my Rangey, you know what I mean?

PS; Chris RE you're S/C V8 Defender, if I can be of any help I will.
 1973 Range Rover, R1200C, Paul Smith Classic Mini LE  
Post #12012916th Jan 2007 11:18 am
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Slimer
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Member Since: 06 Jan 2005
Location: Last Exit to Nowhere
Posts: 16295

United Kingdom 

Shackleton wrote:
.....lump that I can run bio fuels in
That's a whole new ball game!!

Try Nick Evans for the kit, he may have a write off D3 or RRS
 The End  
Post #12014916th Jan 2007 12:07 pm
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Shackleton
 


Member Since: 15 Jan 2007
Location: East Coast
Posts: 10

Ireland 

she'll run a 5% blend of bio diesel without modification, we can get into heavier oils when I have a running V6 Wink

Thanks for the steer! Just called him, doesn't do that kind of thing - only stripped shells seemingly.
 1973 Range Rover, R1200C, Paul Smith Classic Mini LE  
Post #12015316th Jan 2007 12:19 pm
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10forcash
 


Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534

United Kingdom 2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Manual Zermatt SilverDiscovery 3

This might help in deciding Confused
Quote:
GENERAL
The TDV6 engine has an Electronic Diesel Control (EDC) engine management system supplied by Siemens. The system is controlled by an Engine Control Module (ECM) and is able to monitor, adapt and precisely control the fuel injection. The ECM uses multiple sensor inputs and precision control of actuators to achieve optimum performance during all driving conditions.

The ECM controls fuel delivery to all six cylinders via a Common Rail (CR) injection system. The CR system uses a fuel rail to accumulate highly pressurised fuel and feed the six, electronically controlled injectors. The fuel rail is located in close proximity to the injectors, which assists in maintaining full system pressure at each injector at all times.

The ECM uses the drive by wire principle for acceleration control. There are no control cables or physical connections between the accelerator pedal and the engine. Accelerator pedal demand is communicated to the ECM by two potentiometers located in a throttle position sensor. The ECM uses the two signals to determine the position, rate of movement and direction of movement of the pedal. The ECM then uses this data, along with other engine information from other sensors, to achieve the optimum engine response.

The ECM processes information from the following input sources:
Crankshaft sensor (CKP)
Camshaft sensor (CMP)
Manifold air temperature and pressure
Coolant temperature
Oil temperature
Inlet air flow and temperature
Fuel rail temperature
Knock sensors (one per cylinder bank)

The ECM outputs controlling signals to the following sensors and actuator:
Fuel injectors
Cooling fan solenoid
Electronic Throttle
Electronic vane controlled turbo
Port deactivation
Fuel pressure control valve
Fuel volume control valve
E-box fan
Engine mounts
Electronic EGR
Glow plugs
ECM


Inputs

The ECM has the following inputs:
Engine Coolant Temperature
Clutch Switch (via electric park brake control module)
Stop lamp switch (via ABS control module on CAN)
Manifold Absolute Pressure
Throttle Pedal Position 1
Throttle Pedal Position 2
Electronic throttle Position
Viscous Fan Speed
Engine speed and position sensor (crankshaft sensor)
Camshaft position sensor
Engine Oil Temperature
Speed Control Switches (resistive ladders)
Vehicle Speed (via CAN bus)
Generator Monitor
Restraints Control Module
Manifold Absolute Pressure and Inlet Air Temperature
Outputs

The ECM outputs to the following:
Throttle Actuator
Fuel injectors (6)
EGR Valves
Engine Cooling Fan
Fuel pump relay
Starter Relay
Air conditioning condenser fan module
EMS Main Relay
Viscous Fan Control
Generator Control

The ECM connected to the vehicle harnesses via three connectors. The ECM contains data processors and memory microchips. The output signals to the actuators are in the form of ground paths provided by driver circuits within the ECM. The ECM driver circuits produce heat during normal operation and dissipate this heat via the casing. The fan in the E-box assists with the cooling process by maintaining a constant temperature with the E-box. The fan is controlled by a thermostatic switch located in the E-box. The E-box has pipe connections to the vehicle interior and receives additional cooled air via the A/C system. Some sensors receive a regulated voltage supplied by the ECM. This avoids incorrect signals caused by voltage drop during cranking.

The ECM performs self diagnostic routines and stores fault codes in its memory. These fault codes and diagnostics can be accessed using T4. If the ECM is to be replaced, the new ECM is supplied 'blank' and must be configured to the vehicle using T4. A 'flash' Electronic Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory (EEPROM) allows the ECM to be externally configured, using T4, with market specific or new tune information up to 14 times. If a fifteenth update is required the ECM must be replaced. The current engine tune data can be accessed and read using T4.

When a new ECM is fitted, it must also be synchronised to the immobilisation control module using T4. ECM's cannot be 'swapped' between vehicles.

The ECM is connected to the engine sensors which allow it to monitor the engine operating conditions. The ECM processes these signals and decides the actions necessary to maintain optimum engine performance in terms of driveability, fuel efficiency and exhaust emissions. The memory of the ECM is programmed with instructions for how to control the engine, this known as the strategy. The memory also contains data in the form of maps which the ECM uses as a basis for fuelling and emission control. By comparing the information from the sensors to the to the data in the maps, the ECM is able to calculate the various output requirements. The ECM contains an adaptive strategy which updates the system when components vary due to production tolerances or ageing.

The ECM receives a vehicle speed signal on a CAN bus connection from the ABS Control Module. Vehicle speed is an important input to the ECM strategies. The ABS control module derives the speed signal from the ABS wheel speed sensors. The frequency of this signal changes according to road speed. The ECM uses this signal to determine the following:

How much to reduce engine torque during gear changes.
When to permit speed control operation.
To control the operation of the speed control system.
Implementation of the idle strategy when the vehicle is stationary.

Auto Transmission
CONTROLLER AREA NETWORK (CAN)
The high speed CAN broadcast bus network is used to connect the powertrain modules. The CAN bus is connected between the following electronic units:

High Speed CAN Bus
TCM
Instrument cluster
Air suspension module
Steering angle sensor
Rear differential module
Centre console switch pack
Electric park brake module
Restraints control module
Engine Control Module (ECM)
ABS control module
Adaptive front lighting control module
Transfer box control module
Adaptive cruise control module
Diagnostic socket.
The CAN bus allows a fast exchange of data between modules. The CAN bus comprises two wires which are identified as CAN high (H) and CAN low (L). The two wires are coloured yellow/black (H) and yellow/brown (L) and are twisted together to minimise electromagnetic interference (noise) produced by the CAN bus messages. For additional information, refer to Communications Network (418-00 )


In the event of CAN bus failure, the following symptoms may be observed:


Transmission operates in default mode
Torque converter lock-up clutch control is disabled
Gear position indication in instrument cluster message centre inoperative (this will also occur with any transmission fault).
DRIVING MODES
There are a number of different driving modes of operation. Some can be selected by the driver and some are automatically initiated by the TCM during driving:


Normal mode
Sport mode
Manual (CommandShiftâ„¢) mode
Adaptive Shift Strategy (ASIS)
Hill Descent Control (HDC) mode
Cruise mode
Hill mode
Default (Limp home) mode
Reverse lock-out mode
Cooling strategy.
Curve recognition mode
Fast off recognition
Normal Mode
Normal mode is automatically selected by the TCM on power up. In this mode all automatic and adaptive modes are active. Normal mode uses gear shift and lock-up maps to allow for vehicle operation which offers fuel consumption and emissions or driveability depending on the driving style. If the transmission is operated in sport or manual mode and the selector lever is moved to the 'D' position, normal mode is automatically resumed.


Sport Mode
The sport mode operates in high range only and provides enhanced acceleration and responsiveness. In sport mode the TCM uses shift maps which allow the transmission to downshift more readily, hold gears for longer at higher engine speeds, and limits the transmission to the first five gears (6th gear is not used).

Sport mode is selected by moving the selector lever to the left into the 'M/S' position. When the sport mode is first selected, 'SPORT' is displayed in the message centre for 6 seconds and, if 6th gear is currently engaged, the TCM downshifts to 5th.


Manual (CommandShiftâ„¢) Mode
Manual mode allows the transmission to operate as a semi-automatic 'CommandShiftâ„¢' unit. The driver can change up and down the six forward gears with the freedom of a manual transmission.

Shift maps are provided for manual mode to protect the engine at high engine speeds. The TCM will automatically change up to a higher gear ratio to prevent engine overspeed and change down to a lower gear ratio to avoid engine labouring and stalling.

When kickdown is requested the TCM downshifts at least 2 gears.

When the vehicle is stationary, to drive off the driver can select 1st , 2nd or 3rd gear in low and high range. Any other gear selection will be rejected by the TCM.

When driving off, upshifts can be pre-selected by making + selections with the selector lever for the number of upshifts required. The TCM then automatically performs a corresponding number of upshifts when the appropriate shift points are reached. So, for example, when starting off in 1st gear, if three + selections are made in quick succession, the TCM will automatically change up through the box to 4th gear as the vehicle accelerates, without any further selections being made.

In manual mode a low gear can be selected to provide engine braking for descending a slope without HDC or continuous use of the brake pedal. The driver can prepare for the end of the descent by moving the selector lever to D. The TCM will maintain the low gear and only revert to automatic shift control when the throttle is opened and vehicle speed increases.


Adaptive Shift Strategy (ASIS)
The ASIS system is a new feature on automatic transmissions. With the TCM linked via the CAN bus to other vehicle systems, signals are received which can allow the TCM to calculate the way in which the vehicle is being driven. The type of signals include the following:


Longitudinal and lateral acceleration
Engine speed
Engine torque
Oil temperature
Accelerator pedal position
Wheel speed.
Using these signals, additional transmission control can be obtained. The TCM can calculate when the vehicle is cornering, all wheels are gripping, the driver is braking or if the driver is accelerating. This is the conventional 'Adaptive' transmission control. ASIS uses this system but adds the continuous adaptation of the gear changes to the individual driving style of the driver.


HDC Mode
The HDC mode assists the ABS module in controlling the downhill speed of the vehicle. When HDC is selected on, the ABS module selects the most appropriate gear for the descent, to maximise engine braking.


Cruise Mode
When speed control is activated, the TCM receives a cruise active message on the CAN bus. The TCM activates a speed control map which prevents locking and unlocking of the torque converter clutch and minimises up and down shifts.


Hill Mode
Hill mode is initiated by the TCM when the engine torque, via ECM signals on the CAN bus, exceeds the theoretical load curve for normal operation. The TCM monitors this signal to determine when the vehicle is travelling up or down a steep gradient.

In hill mode the TCM adopts one of four shift maps, three uphill and one downhill. The shift map chosen depends on the severity of the slope as determined from the engine signals and the appropriate gear is selected to assist with the ascent or descent.

Hill mode can also be initiated when the vehicle is at very high altitudes or ambient temperatures, and also when the vehicle is towing.


Default (Limp Home) Mode
If a transmission fault is detected by the TCM, the TCM adopts a limp home mode strategy. 'TRANS. FAILSAFE' is displayed in the message centre and, if the fault has an effect on engine emissions, the MIL will also be illuminated.

In default mode, P, R and N functions operate normally (if the fault allows these selections) and the TCM locks the transmission in 3rd or 5th gear to allow the driver to take the vehicle to the nearest dealer. The torque converter lock-up clutch is disabled and reverse lock-out will not function.

If the vehicle is stopped and subsequently restarted in the default mode condition, the TCM operates normally until the fault which caused the condition is detected again.

When limp home mode is active, the gear position indicator will show one of the following letters which defines the fault type:


'F' - transmission is operating in limp home mode
'H' - transmission has reached overheat threshold temperature and transmission is operating in limp home mode
'E' - CAN bus is off and transmission is operating in limp home mode.
If electrical power is lost and the transmission is operating in mechanical limp home mode, the selector lever will not be locked in the 'N' position by the shift interlock solenoid. The lever will be locked in the 'P' position and can only be released by using the interlock emergency release lever or by correcting the electrical fault.


Reverse Lock-Out Mode
When the vehicle is travelling forwards, selecting reverse could cause transmission damage. To protect against this, reverse gear is prohibited if the vehicle is travelling forwards at a road speed above 5 mph (8 km/h).


Cooling Strategy
The purpose of the cooling strategy is to reduce engine and transmission temperatures during high load conditions, when towing a trailer for example. Under these conditions the engine and transmission may generate excessive heat.

If the transmission fluid temperature increases to 125ºC (257ºF) or higher, the TCM employs the cooling strategy. The message 'TRANSMISSION OVERHEAT' is displayed in the message center.

The strategy uses a specific shift and torque converter lock-up clutch map. This map allows torque converter clutch lock-up and gear shifts to operate outside of their normal operation. This will reduce the engine speed and/or slip in the torque converter, therefore reducing heat generated by the engine and the transmission.

If the transmission fluid temperature increases to 137ºC (278ºF) or higher, the transmission will use the default (limp home mode). 'H' is displayed in the gear position indicator. If the temperature exceeds 140ºC (284ºF), CAN bus transmission is disabled and 'E' is displayed in the gear position indicator.

The cooling strategy is cancelled when the transmission fluid temperature decreases to less than 120ºC (248ºF) or below.


Curve Recognition
Curve recognition is activated when high levels of lateral acceleration and/or steering angle are detected via the ABS module and steering angle sensor signals on the CAN bus. When this condition is detected, the TCM prevents the transmission from changing to a higher gear to assist with cornering. When the vehicle completes it manoeuvre, the transmission will shift to the correct ratio.


Fast Off Recognition
Fast off recognition is activated when the TCM detects that the driver has backed off the accelerator pedal quickly in a 'change of mind' manoeuvre. This is detected by monitoring for a high level of negative pedal angle from the engine control module signal on the CAN bus. If this condition is detected, the TCM holds the current gear ratio to allow the driver to complete his original action without the need for a downshift. The mode remains active for a predetermined time period or if the driving style remains passive.

TRANSMISSION FAULT STATUS
If the TCM detects a fault with the transmission system, it will enter a default mode to prevent further damage to the transmission and allow the vehicle to be driven.

When a fault is detected a CAN message is sent from the TCM and is received by the instrument cluster. The instrument cluster illuminates the MIL and displays 'TRANS. FAILSAFE' in the message centre.

Some transmission faults may not illuminate the MIL or display a fault message, but the driver may notice a reduction in shift quality.


ENGINE SPEED AND TORQUE MONITORING
The ECM constantly supplies the TCM with information on engine speed and torque through messages on the CAN bus. The TCM uses this information to calculate the correct and appropriate timing of shift changes.

If the messages are not received by the ECM, the TCM will implement a back-up strategy to protect the transmission from damage and allow the vehicle to be driven.

In the event of an engine speed or torque signal failure, the transmission will adopt the electrical limp home mode with the transmission operating in a fixed gear.

If you've got this far, it's clear that many of the D3's systems are tightly integrated. To install the engine with either an auto or manual 'box will require a lot of re-engineering to various systems, I think the TDV6 + Manual box is possible, the auto 'box is just too integrated with other systems to be viable (unless you happen to be a systems eng. at LR Wink )  
Post #12016716th Jan 2007 1:08 pm
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DSL
Keeper of the wheelie bin 


Member Since: 11 May 2006
Location: Off again! :-)
Posts: 72788

Ukraine 

Chris200100 wrote:
I'm looking into fitting a supercharged V8 into a defender 90 at some point when I get a defender.


What, U have the supercharged V8 already???
   
Post #12020316th Jan 2007 2:53 pm
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al cope
 


Member Since: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 10297

England 

Equicar in Wolverhampton have a D3 4.4 V8 and box for sale.

Alan
 Volvo XC90 B5 Plus Dark
Gone - MY18 D5 HSE - Corris on 22's with Black Pack
Now gone - MY16 D4 SE Tech, Loire Blue, Almond Leather, Privacy, plus some other goodies.
Old - MY12 D4 SDV6 XS Auto - Ipanema Sand with Almond Leather - Plus other niceties, and D4.com sticker
Older - D3 TDV6 XS Auto - Lugano Teal with Almond Leather, 20" Stormers, Shiny Tailpipes, DVD/TV - and obligatory D3 sticker
Ancient - D3 TDV6 S - Tonga with Ebony, 20" Stormers, satnav & DVD 
 
Post #12030316th Jan 2007 7:17 pm
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Shackleton
 


Member Since: 15 Jan 2007
Location: East Coast
Posts: 10

Ireland 

I ignored that cause I presumed it was petrol - thats the new TdV8 yeah?
 1973 Range Rover, R1200C, Paul Smith Classic Mini LE  
Post #12063317th Jan 2007 9:58 am
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10forcash
 


Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534

United Kingdom 2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Manual Zermatt SilverDiscovery 3

Currently the only V8 you'll see in a factory - produced D3 is a petrol engine Sad
  
Post #12063817th Jan 2007 10:24 am
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