Hi Julie,
Julie – I have now read all the thread & am amazed that you two horses came out unscathed – testament to yourself, your daughters. the Vet & the rescue services.
I wonder if this totally preventable (not by you) & unfortunate accident has been seen & the relevance realised by Land Rover ?
Robbie wrote:
Sorry for your accident and clearly things like this should not happen and I do feel the design of the detachable tow bar should have had a secondary restraint mechanism. I also like to stress to all that the detachable tow bar is a machined part with a mechanism and it needs to be serviced like any part of its type. ....
Robbie.....do you mean a second or a double locking pin to secure the wedge mechanism...?
Yes - the actual male part of the wedge is one of the two “machined†surfaces on the hook forging ...servicing to me is a very obscure word...if you break maintenance down to its root components
Cleaning, Inspection, Lubrication & Tightening......on the removable tow hook device the first three are indeed possible & laudable...the tightening is very subjective....check to see the degree of “jiggle†can only really be judged if this has progressed (worn) & realistically will be a judgement call by a person with some competency......with lifting gear in industry it means just that an engineer with specific capability & qualifications.
If servicing means you don’t have it fitted when not towing...to me means there is an inherent design flaw ..... the way it’s made has to have some degree of mechanical clearances &these could vary to the point that movement created by the vehicle being driven causes the slight metal on metal “fretting corrosion†(the red rusty deposits are a clear sign)
Robbie wrote:
It is up for debate has to how much effort LR went to educate owners for the need to properly maintain these items and together with the noted single lock design does place LR under a question mark.
To me.... none...nothing in the vehicle handbook, nothing with the device (when mine was fitted - I did ask), nothing in TOPIX.....other than down-rating the nose weight & possibly including the word “occasional†which (to me) means all as the actual towing capacity remains the same & specifically doesn’t say the hook hasn’t to be there when not in use
Robbie wrote:
I would have liked for dealers to be more proactive checking these things if installed at a service...
Well you do get the white sticky grease applied to various bits & pieces..a totally ineffectual gesture that does zero...are they expecting the grease to melt & run down into the metal to metal contact points like a good oil would ?
But are you expecting a mechanic to Clean, Inspect, Lubricate & Tighten...do you do this to the D3’s & D4’s you work on...the inspection as said above can only be subjective...at what point do they say too much...reject...(the vehicle ? or the hook ?)...if both wear there is no “fixâ€...but LR ought to be in at the front as if something they design, make & sell – on a vehicle that is specifically designed & fully intended to be a towing vehicle.
Robbie wrote:
The dealers for their part would point at the lack of a check item on the service schedule as published by LR...
I have to agree with this....the service schedule should include this...it’s very important.
Robbie wrote:
Others have commented that the MOT check should play a greater role especially given the risk to 3rd parties. Individual MOT stations will in turn point at VOSA who have a current fascination for the tow electrics over a mechanical check...
I haven’t seen this at what I consider Northern Ireland “state of the art test centresâ€...but when I am there next I will ask...
Robbie wrote:
People will apply their own weighting to the responsibility shared between VOSA, dealers, Land Rover and the owners.
I personally rank the four this way:
Land Rover (most culpable)...where it starts...they design, manufacture, provide a warranty & support the product...they have (to me) a very clear duty of care...they cant fudge or dodge the issue by use of words...like occasional
Dealers...they effect the extension of what the makers provide...if we elect to use them - we pay for this one way or another.
Owners...we have to use the vehicle & tow hook properly & ensure they are taken to dealers for the requisite work to be done. If it isn’t done it’s the owners choice
VOSA.. (least culpable)..Provide the checks that issue certificates...legally required...I have my doubts about some MOT provider’s competencies.
Robbie wrote:
The only certainty is that owners are responsible for the condition of their vehicles and I am sure you have reflected on the fact that the bar has degraded to the sorry state we see it in over many years left attached to the vehicle. The ineffective trailer brakes are a lesson to many others.
Robbie – if you mean leaving it on & letting it get rusty...or unknowingly left it in place & it has rattled & worn...then the state of the situation is deplorable, irresponsible of Land Rover & somewhat scandalous if not brought out into the open.
What does interest me is that there is statement (other posts) that these are withdrawn in Ireland
Maybe the MOT ought to include an examination for all the things we actually tow....
Robbie wrote:
The bar design and failure mechanism does intrigue us so we would all be grateful for any other photos of the bar in the highest resolution possible. Of equal importance is the state of the vehicle socket including the hole that the lock engages in. A photo from the spare wheel recess side of the engagement point may help too....
The actual hook forging with two machined parts (ball & wedge) is relatively easy to make & physically check (for variances in size......tolerances etc).......the socket not so...that is why I ventured under my D3 yesterday (no it wasn’t jacked up...on a ramp)...I wonder how this part is made & how the socket specific size is achieved ?
If Land Rover Pete does read what’s on here as said before the script are evidence that there is a problem & it is a recognised one , not an isolated incident & there is a lot of concern, from responsible & concerned owners.
Moderators - ought to join the two threads together & make this a stickieBREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
Founder: Dipsticks-R-Us Inc
D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
4th Aug 2014 9:51 am
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50937
It's too messy to merge Bruce ...the two threads are way too big for that now.21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
But I'm sure would agree both very important threads
Thanks
bruceBREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
Founder: Dipsticks-R-Us Inc
D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
4th Aug 2014 2:43 pm
SkyBear
Member Since: 29 Mar 2014
Location: Weston-super-Mare
Posts: 277
Quote:
To me.... none...nothing in the vehicle handbook, nothing with the device (when mine was fitted - I did ask), nothing in TOPIX.....other than down-rating the nose weight & possibly including the word “occasional†which (to me) means all as the actual towing capacity remains the same & specifically doesn’t say the hook hasn’t to be there when not in use
Not taking either camp in this but I store mine when not in use and make sure that it is greased prior to use. Both my manual and TOPIX do say remove and store if not in use.
Glad the horses survived and no one else was hurt.Black 05 V8SE
4th Aug 2014 2:53 pm
WOODY179
Member Since: 01 Jun 2005
Location: Chesterfield
Posts: 3637
I am sorry to hear about the accident and I am pleased that both horses managed to get out of that alive.
I used to tow a horse box myself occasionally, but whilst not towing, the tow bar was kept in it's storage locker.
Having seen the pictures of the tow bar, I have to say that I would not have been comfortable towing anything with it.
At the end of the day (regardless of whether it is printed in the manual or not) it is up to the owner to make sure that their vehicle, trailer, tow bar (removable or fixed) is safe to be used on the road. Obviously to make sure the tow bar is safe, all fixings on the vehicle should be checked to make sure they are secure.
4th Aug 2014 3:11 pm
blue meanie D3 Decade
Member Since: 04 Aug 2005
Location: Newbury
Posts: 6861
I can't see properly from the pic on the first page but has the securing pin got a chunk out of it? and theeeeennn......???
4th Aug 2014 3:34 pm
nigel207
Member Since: 26 Mar 2009
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 1344
WOODY179 wrote:
I am sorry to hear about the accident and I am pleased that both horses managed to get out of that alive.
I used to tow a horse box myself occasionally, but whilst not towing, the tow bar was kept in it's storage locker.
Having seen the pictures of the tow bar, I have to say that I would not have been comfortable towing anything with it.
At the end of the day (regardless of whether it is printed in the manual or not) it is up to the owner to make sure that their vehicle, trailer, tow bar (removable or fixed) is safe to be used on the road. Obviously to make sure the tow bar is safe, all fixings on the vehicle should be checked to make sure they are secure.
Just like when filling a bath. I don't think I've read anywhere in instructions that you should turn the tap off before the water overflows, but..............
4th Aug 2014 4:20 pm
Gareth Site Moderator
Member Since: 07 Dec 2004
Location: Bramhall
Posts: 26705
Sorry to hear about the horses, glad they are ok.
Prompted by this I decided to have a close inspection of my removable bracket.
The history of the bracket is extensive, I have owned it for nearly 10 years and used it in 3 vehicles. It has towed many thousands of miles, a twin axle caravan, and recently a single axle. It did have its lock replaced after a key snapped. I will say that the earlier tow brackets had a different shaped handle and key, mine now has the later type. As far as I know they are 100% interchangeable.
I do remove the bracket for most of the time, although like many I suspect, I have left it on the car since the caravans were deployed for the summer. It has done a bit of off-roading, and has been immersed in mud a few times. I do clean it and keep it well oiled (or so I thought....)
Today, I took the bracket off the car. It was stiff to remove and took a bit of force and grunt to get it to release.
Then put it on the bench and removed the lock assembly. This was full of oily dust, and the key was stiff to turn. The plunger was also not fully extending when the key was turned to the lock position. A good dose of cleaner, then fresh oil got it moving easily.
Behind the handle is a red plastic ring, screwed to the bracket with 2 stainless allen head bolts. This was showing signs of wear where the above mentioned plunger was dragging on the plastic. I then removed the 2 stainless bolts, and pulled the red ring off, behind this was a spring which was covered in a rusty clag. The mechanism was visible inside and it too was very mucky.
Because I did not want to dismantle any further, I cleaned the clag out with a cleaner spray, then re-greased the mechanism by forcing some grease down the side of the shaft. I got some mole grips on the shaft and worked it to and fro, and things did get easier to move.
I put it all back together and it now seems to work perfectly well.
Here is the bracket in my vice. This is in the removed position, with the locking pawl fully withdrawn. The reason my bracket was difficult to remove, was that the pawl would not initially fully withdraw due to rusty clag inside the bracket.
Click image to enlarge
Inspecting for wear, these are the contact points of the wedge as it is held into the socket of the chassis by the pawl. There was slight wear, but nothing too scary.
Click image to enlarge
Click image to enlarge
This is the trigger pin, that when the bracket is inserted, releases the spring loaded pawl and in theory locks the bracket in place. It does not take much force to press the trigger. A tap with a small hammer does it, and the pawl should immediately shoot out.
Click image to enlarge
This is the pawl fully extended. it extends 25mm from the bottom edge to the pointy end.
Click image to enlarge
Click image to enlarge
You can then turn and remove the key.
Click image to enlarge
Here is the worrying bit. With the key removed, if I pull and turn the handle, it will still retract the pawl a fair way. Not enough for the bracket to come out of the car, but enough to make it rattle around. I am not sure if it is supposed to do this.
Looking at the lock design, it relies on a metal plunger that extends when the key is turned to the lock position. This plunger stops the handle turning enough to fully release the bracket, but it is only prevented from moving further by a raised piece of plastic inside the red ring at the base of the handle. If this was to break off then the key would have no effect, and would not prevent the bracket been removed. You would still have to turn the handle though.
Click image to enlarge
I am wondering if there is a difference between the new style handle and the old style bracket (which I have) I would think that most of the early designs would have been replaced by now and the keys were very fragile.
Anyway, I am not a tow bracket expert, but not afraid to pull something to bits to see how it works. Personally, now I have 'bench tested' mine, I will continue to use it. But I will be paying attention to the pawl, and making sure it fully extends. I think cleanliness is very important. There is a lot of potential for a foreign body to press the trigger early, and deploy the pawl before the bracket is fully home. It should be obvious if that has happened, but you never know.
4th Aug 2014 5:19 pm
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
Hi Gareth,
Very useful pictures and your bar is of similar vintage to mine. I'm still on the original lock with the daft fragile keys - I guess I have been lucky with them.
My lock can also travel when the key is removed but I have yet to measure the throw of the pin in this condition. One of my unproven theories is the pin may not engage fully and yet the give of the lock allows the key to be removed. Another is that the locking pin can be forced to walk rewards by mechanical action to the point that it becomes ineffective. As you have observed the mechanical parts need to be clean and greased to snap properly into place.
When I next get chance I will take some pictures and measurements of mine to compare.Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50937
Nice write up Gareth
A couple of Q's
is there a known depth for the pawl receiving slot on the motor?
the top of the pawl looks to be a different finish for around 3/4 of the top i.e shiny against a worn finish on the last 1/4 ...does that maybe indicate that only that 1/4 is normally utilised when engaged?21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
4th Aug 2014 7:09 pm
Gareth Site Moderator
Member Since: 07 Dec 2004
Location: Bramhall
Posts: 26705
The receiver hole in the chassis is not a blind hole, it goes right through. If you look up the rear of the spare wheel, you can see it. This is a good thing, because any mud would get pushed out the other side.
I have also noted the polished wear mark on my pawl. This puzzles me as I have certainly not inserted/removed the bracket enough times to polish the ground finish like that. It does seem to me to be movement in service thats causing that. It does coincide with the amount that the pawl retracts when you turn the handle without unlocking the key
We need a way of filming the pawl from behind the spare whilst driven with a trailer on.
4th Aug 2014 7:21 pm
Discoed
Member Since: 16 Jun 2010
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 1020
When I fit my tow-bar it is tight and there is no movement however once I heave on it I suspect the locking pin starts to 'walk' back into the hitch. This is consistent with your findings. I am going top oil my pin and the socket and see if this reduced friction leads to less 'walking'
The pin should really lock out at it's full extent
**update**
if its fitted and waggled it quickly loosens however you can eradicate this play by rotation the green handle clockwise - turn upwards towards the bumper as far as it will go - the hitch then tightens as the pin re engages with the hole and then it seems far less likely to work loose again. Can anyone else repeat this observation?
I have done this several times now and really given the removable some stick with a bar type stabiliser attached and it no longer works loose despite my best efforts with a lot of leverage!
4th Aug 2014 7:33 pm
Slangen
Member Since: 03 Aug 2014
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 9
I can confirm that my locking pawl did not fully extend when i hit the activator pin with the whole thing in my vice. However i was able to remove the key when the locking pawl was out only 15mm . This is how i have been towing lately, wiggly.
I was however able to turn the green handle further and the pawl was out 25mm, it was sort of clicking when I turned it. After a clean and grease up it shoots out fully an it is not possible to pull it back to 15mm, however there is a play of a few mm.
Have not been able to test it in the car tonight but before it was very wiggly.
Am I the only one that thinks the locking pawl that is pointing slightly upwards is a bad idea, should that not put extra stress to it under load and force it to walk out of the housing?
4th Aug 2014 10:40 pm
Gareth Site Moderator
Member Since: 07 Dec 2004
Location: Bramhall
Posts: 26705
I thought that too. The angle on the lower face of the pawl would tend to push the pawl into the hitch when under downward pressure. I'm not sure if that angle is as designed, or is worn onto the pawl?
4th Aug 2014 10:49 pm
90 Rangie
Member Since: 17 Dec 2007
Location: Central Queensland
Posts: 121
When the D4 came out with a lot better removable height tow hitch, I replaced the D3 one with a D4 one.
With the old one there was nothing stopping the handle from rotating backwards where the D4 one has a racthet arrangement to stop this. Much better and tow hitch never loosens at all where the old one did a little.
Over here a few vans were lost from the back of D3's but they nearly all seamed to be using WDH which should not be used as it puts force on the tow hitch in a different way.
Use mine all the time for towing either a 3t car traler or 3t caravan (touch wood) feel safe with the D4 hitch never did with D3 hitch.Do not take life too seriously no one gets out alive anyway!
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all as the actual towing capacity remains the same & specifically doesn’t say the hook hasn’t to be there when not in use
