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EPB - LR say service car every 3750 miles (changed).
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NoDo$h
Joined: 02 May 2006
Location: Decapod 10
Posts: 5493
 
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| EPB - LR say service car every 3750 miles (changed). |
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Suggestions please folks. As you know my EPB has failed on countless occassions. I've had LRA come out and fix it at the roadside, it's been recovered to the dealer and it's needed numerous manual releases.
The dealer currently has the vehicle to fit a SECOND replacement starter motor (the new one fitted in July failed last week after approximately 4,000 miles) and a failed wheel speed sensor and had agreed to do whatever it took to sort out the EPB once and for all. The EPB hasn't been used in about 2 months since I last had to manually release it, pending this investigation.
The service manager rang this morning to advise that they had stripped down the EPB and found it to be full of dirt (on an offroad vehicle? Well who'd have thought it!) and advising the cost to replace will be £470. How I refrained from swearing is beyond me, but I patiently explained that the brake has been adjusted and cleaned on countless instances and each time has gone out of adjustment in a few thousand miles. The last work on the EPB was on 4 June at 20,000 miles, it failed again at 23,000 and hasn't been used since. I also asked how all the dirt gets in to a well adjusted brake and was informed "well it's open to the elements" Well so are the normal effing brakes and I don't have to strip and clean them every 3000 miles!!!!
I have told the dealer to do no further work on the EPB as I have no intention of paying for it and will be taking this to LR Customer Care as there is a serious design fault here. Before I do, has anyone any suggestions on the best way of dealing with this? It will be a cold day in hell before I pay them a single penny for EPB adjustment related repairs while in warranty. Don't Panic! Everything will be fine.... inflation is only 2.5% 3.0% 3.3% and the flying pigs are carbon neutral 
Last edited by NoDo$h on Thu Sep 27 2007 9:36am; edited 1 time in total
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 Wed Sep 26 2007 9:42am |
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Alex08
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 672
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I think I would be asking them how much it is to trade for a MY07 they want rid of - sounds like these problems will run and run....... Some good deals just now when I have been in the local dealers.
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| Wed Sep 26 2007 10:34am |
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simon
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Location: You'll never know
Posts: 13685
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mmm I've had no issues over the last nearly 3 years with my dealer sorting the EPB.
Faults off the top of my head were :
Intermittent squeal - cleaned and adjusted - no charge.
Squealer on application - fixed by replacing the whole assembly under warranty.
Continuous metal on metal rubbing noise - fixed under warranty.
At each service the system will be adjusted as part of the service schedule too. Cost of this is built into service charge.
I would either go see another dealer for a chat or push hard saying that its a fault and warranty job. I would have assumed that dirt would not cause the cables to go out of adjustment which is where your problem lies from what I gather.
This as you say is a design fault. The LRA chappie who looked into my continuously scrapping noise said that the auto adjust mechanism doesn't adjust automatically like it should do.
If LR did a WW recall on all D3's it would cost them a fortune... so they are looking at a solution that can be done during the normal service schedule... well thats what I was told anyway.
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| Wed Sep 26 2007 10:45am |
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caverD3
Joined: 03 Jul 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1666
 
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I think this needs sorting before anyone else is slugged for a faultily designed EPB.
There is a lot of evidence of this. I would suggest it is not fit for the purpose given how LR advertise the product (suitable, nay excellent off road and in the mud)  Getting there is half the fun
TDV6: Adaptive Headlights, Electronic Rear Diff.ARB Bar.Blaupunkt speakers, JVC powered Subwoofer, Removable Snorkel, Mitchell Bros Tow Hitch.
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| Wed Sep 26 2007 10:55am |
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NoDo$h
Joined: 02 May 2006
Location: Decapod 10
Posts: 5493
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The service manager (edit @ 11:40: not the service manager, one of the front desk team) was unaware that his own dealership had replaced the original starter motor at 22,624 miles (now approx 26000 and the new motor has failed) so perhaps he's unaware that they also replaced the EPB at 19,857 and I complained of the EPB failing again circa 24,000 miles but that we agreed we'd leave getting it investigated until it was next due in.  After all, he's only got all the records in front of him
I've left a message for the Customer Care Manager at the dealership to ring me. I think they need to have a look at the vehicle records before trying to crowbar any cash out of me. Next step will be to ring Coventry, then a call to Mike Mullholland if he's still a director at PAG. Don't Panic! Everything will be fine.... inflation is only 2.5% 3.0% 3.3% and the flying pigs are carbon neutral
Last edited by NoDo$h on Wed Sep 26 2007 11:42am; edited 1 time in total
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| Wed Sep 26 2007 11:01am |
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simon
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Location: You'll never know
Posts: 13685
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This is one thing that concerns me should I keep my existing D3 another 2-3 years and its out of warranty.
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| Wed Sep 26 2007 11:28am |
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NoDo$h
Joined: 02 May 2006
Location: Decapod 10
Posts: 5493
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The Customer Care Manager at the dealership is going to meet with the service manager and discuss the history of the vehicle. I've confirmed she has the various mileages from when the car has been in and her initial reaction is that it doesn't seem reasonable for the brake to fail so frequently if the cause of the failure is the adjuster failing to work properly as many of us suspect it is. What's so galling is that if the suspension hadn't failed (and the Takla then given up on me) I would have given the EPB a clean after the Wilts trip as part of my usual post-offroad clean. As it was I was so knackered from manually jacking the car to the point where I could get axle stands under it I only cleaned the obvious surface debris from the underside of the car. Not helped as it was getting dark by this point too!
The CCM wants to get a handle on how many EPB problems they've seen as she shares my concern that this will blow up in the dealer's face when cars start to come to their first MOT. Don't Panic! Everything will be fine.... inflation is only 2.5% 3.0% 3.3% and the flying pigs are carbon neutral
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| Wed Sep 26 2007 11:48am |
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al cope
Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 1553
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Dosh - question, is yours an auto. I guess it is if the EPB hasnt been used for a while (as in your first post), so is that part of the problem, lack of regular use, means its sticks/fails when you do go to use it. Just a thought.
Al TDV6 S - Tonga with Ebony
(and 19" RRS alloys, satnav & DVD)
Vote for Global Warming - Cambridge on Sea sounds good to me, no more using the M5 to get to the seaside
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| Wed Sep 26 2007 12:06pm |
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craig
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: Home of LR.
Posts: 1987
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Hovering the mouse over his little blue Disco Al it does say Auto....
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| Wed Sep 26 2007 12:28pm |
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DG
Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff !
Posts: 13040
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Ask them to show you where in the handbook it states that the EPB must be cleaned after going off-road and that cleaning \ adjusting it is the reponsibility of the vehicles owner. Powered by............................
.
I've been accused of vulgarity. I say that's bullshit 
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| Wed Sep 26 2007 12:36pm |
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al cope
Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 1553
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Rogue, well theres something I didnt know - auto it is.
Al TDV6 S - Tonga with Ebony
(and 19" RRS alloys, satnav & DVD)
Vote for Global Warming - Cambridge on Sea sounds good to me, no more using the M5 to get to the seaside
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| Wed Sep 26 2007 12:41pm |
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NoDo$h
Joined: 02 May 2006
Location: Decapod 10
Posts: 5493
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Yup, it's an auto. The problem isn't due to lack of use, it's due to the shoes moving too far out from the drum as the cable fails to keep up. Eventually the actuator motor clutch kicks in as the motor won't drive the brakes on fully at the limit of the motor travel and you get all kinds of joy.
As the shoes move away from the drum, debris collects in there and the motor has to work harder still to get the brake to engage.
Hmmm, poor description. Let's try again:
The park brake is a shoe and drum affair. It's driven by an actuator motor (actually a windscreen wiper motor). When you pull up on the switch the motor pulls a cable and applies the brake. When the brake is engaged the motor gets a signal to stop. Should all be fine and dandy, except.....
An inherent problem with electric motors is electromotive force (momentum of the motor). When the motor is told to stop it continues to apply force beyond the stop point. This will eventually stretch the cable, so the motor has to pull more cable to get the brakes to engage.
The motor assembly has finite travel, so has a clutch mechanism that stops the assembly exceeding this travel. As the cable stretches so the motor has to pull more, each time over-running by a fraction and stretching the cable more. After a while the cable is so stretched that the motor assembly reaches the point where the clutch kicks in, which is the noise of a dying dinosaur you hear with some EPB failures.
The problem is made worse by dust, mud and debris. As your cable slackens, so the amount of play between the drum and brake increases. This allows debris between the friction surfaces, which in turn cause the brake to tighten without providing sufficient stopping force. The motor works harder to overcome the debris and grinds it into the brake surfaces, leading to gouging and pitting and even more stretch on the cable.
So in short here is a design that is inherently unsuited to offroad use. 
And Land Rover don't seem to have accepted this is an issue.
Which is why I will be dropping a line to Matthew Taylor, MD of Land Rover, requesting that he has a word with his director of product engineering to ask WTF they propose to do about it. Don't Panic! Everything will be fine.... inflation is only 2.5% 3.0% 3.3% and the flying pigs are carbon neutral
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| Wed Sep 26 2007 12:45pm |
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al cope
Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 1553
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Nice description Dosh
Al TDV6 S - Tonga with Ebony
(and 19" RRS alloys, satnav & DVD)
Vote for Global Warming - Cambridge on Sea sounds good to me, no more using the M5 to get to the seaside
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| Wed Sep 26 2007 12:51pm |
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caverD3
Joined: 03 Jul 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1666
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Good idea Nodosh. Getting there is half the fun
TDV6: Adaptive Headlights, Electronic Rear Diff.ARB Bar.Blaupunkt speakers, JVC powered Subwoofer, Removable Snorkel, Mitchell Bros Tow Hitch.
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| Wed Sep 26 2007 12:53pm |
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Bodsy
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Location: Sweet home ala shropshire....
Posts: 4922
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Perhaps you should draft a letter that we all can print out and sign individually & then send them all to his home address.....?
They'd be arriving from all over the country. I can see a class action coming in the states for this, particularly when they come out of warranty.
Clear design flaw IMHO TDV6 HSE Black, Black Wheels /MTR's, Black RRS front/rear LR badge (tbf) Black Leather, Black Glass, Black TowB, Shiny Tasmods, Dull Mantec, White (& Orange) Reflective D3 Sticker, Black steering wheel badge, black air intake. Optima & Traxide dual battery setup.
Need black RRS wheel centre caps.
We D3, therefore we are..........
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| Wed Sep 26 2007 1:53pm |
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