paynetec
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Location: Dubai
Posts: 50
 
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I have been desert driving for a few years now, so think I understand the fundamentals; air down the tyres, right gear, momentum etc, my last vehicle was a Prado and got on pretty well with that .
The TR on the D3 is good in most situations and with the DSC off can cope with deep sand HOWEVER when climbing sand dunes where you want to give it some 'boot' why does the DSC kick in again and kill the revs just when you need it? (Reverse back down again!) This seems to be a well documented 'drip' about the D3 and I would suggest a flawed system unless i'm missing something. Obviously along with the 'off-road height' speed restraint issue.
I think I have the system set up correctly and have tried playing about with it, so my question is- Is it possible to disengage the DSC and allow the wheels to spin without killing the revs? If this cant be achieved then I have to question why it wasnt picked up when the vehicle was 'extensivly tested' in the desert. Dont get me wrong, I love the vehicle, but to watch LC's, Prado's and Patrols climb dunes with ease and not be able to follow can be a bit irritating/embarrassing  to say the least.
Is it me????? 
Any top tips/ideas appreciated!
Many thanks C.P. V8 HSE Atacama Sand......Happy Days!!
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 Sun Jul 06 2008 12:19pm |
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AndrewS
Tarquin of the Desert
Joined: 06 May 2005
Location: Earth
Posts: 5991
 
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I experienced this exact issue in the Morocco 2006 Desert Storm Challenge and again in Mackenterra, France. I am not sure of the exact % that the DSC is reduced when the switch is turned off. I presume it to be about 70%.
Having driven the D3 in these conditions and watched others doing the same. We have come to the conclusion that you have to 'pick your lines' through the tracks and terrain to keep the vehicle as stable as possible and don't 'boot it' too much as this will send you over the 70% threshold and the DSC will kick in. For what its worth I have noticed that lady drivers will get a lot further in these circumstances. For use of a 4x4 site and driver training pm me 
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| Sun Jul 06 2008 1:09pm |
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Ken
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Location: Here & There
Posts: 4364
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SO Andrew after seeing you drive in the Sand you must be a Lady  Notice to Vultures are you bits ready for collection yet
Click here
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| Sun Jul 06 2008 1:20pm |
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AndrewS
Tarquin of the Desert
Joined: 06 May 2005
Location: Earth
Posts: 5991
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Ken wrote:SO Andrew after seeing you drive in the Sand you must be a Lady
Well it certainly helps if you wear a short skirt  For use of a 4x4 site and driver training pm me
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| Sun Jul 06 2008 1:23pm |
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Desert Traveller
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: South East Queensland
Posts: 298
 
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What tyres and what pressures are the vehicles running?
All Tojos have higher profile tyres therefore the footprint lengthens to an acceptable level at higher pressures than the D3 with 55 or 60 series tyres. DSC is not an issue when turned off (or reduced).
I've had no problems out performing experienced offroad drivers in sand when I've lowered my pressures (always a lot less than they are running). 06 TDV6 SE with Extras
VW Eos TDI
Previously 01 TD5 and 94 TDI
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| Mon Jul 07 2008 12:20am |
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paynetec
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Location: Dubai
Posts: 50
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Running standard 19'' wranglers at 18 psi, but thats not my issue, my point is why have a system on an off road vehicle that appears to be flawed and probably simple to fix possibly even with a software update? I'm getting up the dunes (sometimes ) but when I hit the crest the system cuts the power cos the wheels are spinning and it grinds to a halt, with the Prado that would be enough to crawl up the remainder. Frustrating!
Great system but surely off should mean off!!!!!
Cheers
CP V8 HSE Atacama Sand......Happy Days!!
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| Mon Jul 07 2008 2:44am |
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Desert Traveller
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: South East Queensland
Posts: 298
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See below. 06 TDV6 SE with Extras
VW Eos TDI
Previously 01 TD5 and 94 TDI
Last edited by Desert Traveller on Mon Jul 07 2008 4:53am; edited 1 time in total
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| Mon Jul 07 2008 4:51am |
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Desert Traveller
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: South East Queensland
Posts: 298
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As you can see from my Avatar I have crossed many dunes. I keep the power on to keep all wheels spinning until the final front lift off. From experience, if you back off as you crest the dune the power drops right off and you can end up on your belly.
But I do agree that in sand it would be good to totally turn off the TC at each wheel as long as central and rear diffs can still lock.
This is where LR needs to talk to real users in real life to best programme the vehicles. 06 TDV6 SE with Extras
VW Eos TDI
Previously 01 TD5 and 94 TDI
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| Mon Jul 07 2008 4:52am |
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norto
Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Location: batemans bay
Posts: 993
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I had 12psi pressure with the abs fuse removed to do the
simpson desert last month.
High range in first gear with no wheel spin seemed to be the best way over the dunes Peter
"Global Warming" The religion of the left
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| Mon Jul 07 2008 5:34am |
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Desert Traveller
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: South East Queensland
Posts: 298
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norto,
That is how I used to do it in the D2, disabling the ABS and with the centre diff locked (no TC).
How was the Simpson, did you get the rain?
Do you have the eDiff on your D3?
DT 06 TDV6 SE with Extras
VW Eos TDI
Previously 01 TD5 and 94 TDI
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| Mon Jul 07 2008 5:59am |
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hernan1304
Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Location: Dubai
Posts: 373
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Paynetec - 18psi is a bit high, I'd suggest 12-15 in deep sand, especially now that the summer's hit us in full and the sands are soft.
What kind of climbs are you talking about? Do you have trouble on run-of-the-mill small and medium dunes or are you trying for Moreeb hill?
I've never had issues climbing dunes. The D3 seems like a goat, just keeps going... I have run into the traction control killing power only when I'm trying to get out of a stuck or almost-stuck situation, but not when climbing.
DSC is fully disabled when you turn it off, but "traction control" always stays on unfortunately. The other unfortunate thing is not having manual control of the locking diffs.
Things to try:
1) Low Range (it can help in soft sand, though honestly I'm usually in high range)
2) Make sure that you're properly disabling DSC (it requires more than just a push, you have to hold it until the light comes on in the dash - AND remember it defaults back to ON when you cycle the ignition)
3) Go faster / more momentum on approach - the warning beep that you should slow down or the suspension will lower doesn't mean that the suspension is actually lowering... If you time it right, you'll get the beep just before actually hitting the dune, and by that time the uphill will slow you down and the suspension will stay where it is.
4) Approach in a straight line perpendicular to the dune - I find that the traction control usually won't mess with you unless it senses you're slipping sideways.
5) Use command shift - this one is a biggie. If left in full auto, the box always tends to be a gear too high.
Keep the power on, but be careful as once or twice I've gotten some unintended air and the crash down at the other end wasn't pretty. You don't fully realize just how much momentum 2.7 tons has even when going not so fast!! Slow and steady is best at the top, I've actually slid the belly of the D3 over crests quite successfully and never beached yet... I find that the increased height really helps in this regard. Anyways, it's easy to get out of the beach with a quick pull from your 4x4 buddies if needed - better safe than sorry.
The only other thing I can think of is maybe you're using too much power at the wrong time... Like if you're approaching slowly because you're afraid of the suspension lowering and then putting the power on only when you're facing uphill, you might be bogging down more than you realize. The D3 has surprised me in the past when I've tried going up a dune very slowly to do "recon", fully expecting that I would need to come back down and get a good run up in order to get over, and the D3 just kept moving at a crawl and got right over!
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| Mon Jul 07 2008 6:43am |
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paynetec
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Location: Dubai
Posts: 50
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Thanks for the tips guys, think I may be guilty of driving the D3 like a Prado...point and shoot! 
A few more questions if you dont mind:
1. Are the 19'' rim/tyre combo good for 12psi? I have had a pajero come off the rim at 15psi (taller tyre mind).
2. Norto any negatives about pulling the fuze, I assume that the centre diff wont lock either? I did think about pulling the fuze and putting in an inline fuze/switch so as to kill the DSC but not sure how: a. the computer would like it b. How the dealer would like it!! (warranty etc)
3. Hernan (Great news about the car!!) Small/Med stuff around Al Awir (I work there), deep sand (churned up) and hot (48'C. My issue is not with getting traction or even getting to the top, it is the fact that I dont seem to have any manual control of the power. Even in CS with DSC off there comes a point when the DSC is killing the power to the wheels and actually causing problems. I will try a more perpendicular approach as the side slipping could have been an issue. What you say about 'Keep the power on ' and 'Slow and steady at the top' is exactly what i'm attempting ('Prado style') but its at that point, nearing the top, where I would expect it to crawl the last bit with wheel spin that the engine power dies.
I'm out again tomorrow so will try the tips/techniques
Much appreciated
CP V8 HSE Atacama Sand......Happy Days!!
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| Mon Jul 07 2008 11:04am |
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hernan1304
Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Location: Dubai
Posts: 373
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Out tomorrow! I'm jealous!
I have to break in the second engine for 1000km before I can go play... 
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| Mon Jul 07 2008 12:37pm |
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norto
Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Location: batemans bay
Posts: 993
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Paynetec
Mine is a base model disco without a rear diff lock, im not sure what affect removing the fuse would have on a HSE.
DT
The rain came thru about a week after we done our trip
Everyone i asked said not to take the camper and it was good advice.
The dunes were the highest theyd been in seven years.
The trip was great fun and uneventful except for TDMPs holed radiator.
I ordered a Optima Yellow top yeserday..... is yours a D34 Peter
"Global Warming" The religion of the left
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| Mon Jul 07 2008 10:58pm |
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Desert Traveller
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: South East Queensland
Posts: 298
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norto,
My aux is a D34 Yellow Top.
DT 06 TDV6 SE with Extras
VW Eos TDI
Previously 01 TD5 and 94 TDI
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| Tue Jul 08 2008 4:24am |
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