DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Catastrophic failures of TDV6 engines in South Africa

hgbosch

Member Since: 25 Oct 2010
Location: Pretoria and Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 188

Frans@yamorna wrote:
George,so with 500ppm it seems that carbon is a bigger problem than lube.As I have to use 500ppm from time to time in my D3 and FL2 TD4,what ratio of 2T would you suggest??I have been using at a ratio of 1:200 irrespective of diesel quality.
Thanks,Frans

Hi Frans

in that case I would continue to use the 1:200 ratio.

Also please remember, the engine oil MUST be replaced every 10000-12000km in SA, because of our diesel. If you stick to 24000km intervals, it is a pure question of time, before the engine runs a big end bearing and/or throws a conrod = R100'000.00 approx. EX AFRICA SEMPER ALIQUID NOVI
SEMPER IN FAECIBUS SUMUS SOLE, PROFUNDUM VARIAT

with kind regards

George Bosch
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
2003 Range Rover Td6
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi (sold)
And some more serious stuff

9th Jun 2012 11:13 pm

amazing

Member Since: 05 Mar 2011
Location: chengdu
Posts: 1542

2011 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 HSE Auto Santorini Black

2000ppm

dispite regulations the reality is most diesel sold
in china conforms to 2000ppm sulphur content.(as apposed to new 350ppm regulation) LR dealers now say change oil every 6000km (down from8000)
so its getting to be service is a major cost factor. oil change cost to fuel cost currently 27%. It is better to have and not need it then need and not have it.

10th Jun 2012 4:05 am

hgbosch

Member Since: 25 Oct 2010
Location: Pretoria and Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 188

Re: 2000ppm

amazing wrote:
dispite regulations the reality is most diesel sold
in china conforms to 2000ppm sulphur content.(as apposed to new 350ppm regulation) LR dealers now say change oil every 6000km (down from8000)
so its getting to be service is a major cost factor. oil change cost to fuel cost currently 27%.

Hi amazing

LR dealers in China are quite correct to call for a 6000km (3750mls) service intervall with 2000ppm diesel being the bulk of diesel sold in China (as per your info).

Here in SA before the introduction of 500ppm and 50ppm diesel, the norm used to be 3000ppm, with dodgy suppliers in our northern and north eastern neighboring states sometimes selling diesel with up to 8000ppm and a "healthy"

dose of paraffine to improve their profit margins

I trust that LR vehicles sold in China are not fitted with DPF's, as with those ppm figures, this surely would be a worrysome factor.

You will do well to add 2sO to your diesel. Just make sure it is Jaso-FC compliant for the TDV6 and TDV8 motors. EX AFRICA SEMPER ALIQUID NOVI
SEMPER IN FAECIBUS SUMUS SOLE, PROFUNDUM VARIAT

with kind regards

George Bosch
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
2003 Range Rover Td6
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi (sold)
And some more serious stuff

10th Jun 2012 8:11 am

amazing

Member Since: 05 Mar 2011
Location: chengdu
Posts: 1542

dpf's a plenty

DPF standard but don't know anyone who has had problems with one. But this study may explain:

During the first decade of Diesel particle filter development and deployment in cars, trucks, buses and underground sites, DPF regeneration methods were engineered that were compatible with the then prevalent high sulfur content in the fuel > 2000 ppm. The mainly used methods were burners, electrical heaters, replaceable filters and non-precious metal fuel additives. Low sulfur Diesel fuel became only available from 1996 in Sweden, 1998 in Switzerland, and after 2000 everywhere in Europe. Thus, the deployment of precious metal catalytic converters was feasible both as original equipment and retrofitting of in-use engines. The so-called CRT particle filters using PGM-catalysis for providing NO 2 for low temperature regeneration became very successful wherever ULSD was available. However, in many applications, e.g. off-road and in the construction industry, Diesel engines continued to run on high sulfur fuel and in many emerging countries, even on-road Diesel fuel still contains between 1000 and 2000 ppm sulfur. These countries suffer very much from air pollution through increasing Diesel particle emissions and the high impact of black carbon particles on human health as well as on the global warming is worrying. Hence, the necessity for modern particle filters that are compatible with high sulfur content of the fuel. In the context of Chinese megalopolis, this paper reports investigation of a fuel which is typical for China (containing > 1000 ppm sulfur) and compares results with European standard Diesel fuel. The test objects were two modern SiC particle filters, which were regenerated using different iron-based FBC. The combustion attributes of the soot were investigated by TGA and their EC/OC composition was examined. The results indicate that at the given test conditions the fuel sulfur does not significantly change the filters' physical and chemical properties. Neither the filter particle loading process nor the filter regeneration is noticeably different for the high sulfur test fuel compared to the ultra-low sulfur European fuel. Therefore VERT-verified iron-based FBC-type DPF can be used in countries where ULSD is not yet available.

when I chatted to LR drive train dude I asked about the dpf and he said they now run a more active cleaning cycle.

and here makes fun reading
http://ftp.rta.nato.int/public/PubFullText...Report.pdf
also since we are talking additives this is quite a good ref

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177728 It is better to have and not need it then need and not have it.

10th Jun 2012 10:27 am

BensonAJ

Member Since: 07 Dec 2011
Location: Johannesburg
Posts: 5

2009 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Auto Alaska White

Hi George

I dropped my D3 off at Landy Worx this morning and saw the D3 in question there. I would crap myself if this had to happen to my baby.

Anycase she's in for a 130 000km service and Peter is removing my CAT and blanking of the EGR's, so let's see what she does!!!

19th Jul 2012 12:12 pm

D4JWW

Member Since: 20 Oct 2009
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1318

2009 Discovery 3 TDV6 GS Manual Stornoway Grey

Benson you won't be dissapointed by either Peter's service nor the decatted upgrade, can you pm me the cost of the decat ( and whats involved, keep origanal pipe with cat replaced by straight pipe or complete new down pipe)may encourage a family member to do similar upgrade( EGRs blanked allready) A few mods... and keeping it all running...Faultmate MSV2
MY09EGR's blanked Thanks Bellautos, BAS

19th Jul 2012 12:39 pm

hgbosch

Member Since: 25 Oct 2010
Location: Pretoria and Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 188

Reasons for big end failures, conrod breaking etc uncovered!

Hi guys

after too many engine failures in sunny SA, the veil can now be lifted on why these catastrophic engine failures are taking place.

1. Design fault of the PSA engine relating to the seating of big end bearing shells. There are no tabs incorporated, which would prevent the shell halves from rotating. This DOES TAKE PLACE!!!!!!!!!! until the oil feed channel from the main journal has been blanked off by the rotated bearing halves. At this stage oil feed is no longer possible to the big end and conrod(s) and a ^massive seizure will take place, which will result in either:

- Run bearings

- snapped conrod

- snapped crankshaft

2. These failures have now been observed to happen between 90'000km and 210'000km. In all cases, a new sub assembly had to be fitted.

3. LR does not make available the torque settings and or the max permissible stretch of the conrod bolts etc.

I just wonder how long it will take before a crafty attorney starts collecting evidence to hit LR with a class action suit. I am absolutely certain that it will now just be a question of time before this happens. EX AFRICA SEMPER ALIQUID NOVI
SEMPER IN FAECIBUS SUMUS SOLE, PROFUNDUM VARIAT

with kind regards

George Bosch
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
2003 Range Rover Td6
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi (sold)
And some more serious stuff

16th Aug 2012 6:49 am

hugeviking

Member Since: 08 Jun 2010
Location: cotswolds
Posts: 1482

2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Manual Cairns Blue

Blimy hgbosch thats quite frightening, are you sure of this information.

makes me think of selling the D3 very quickly.

Andi.

16th Aug 2012 9:36 pm

hgbosch

Member Since: 25 Oct 2010
Location: Pretoria and Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 188

hugeviking wrote:
Blimy hgbosch thats quite frightening, are you sure of this information.
makes me think of selling the D3 very quickly.

Andi.

Hi Andi

LR seem to be aware of this situation. Because on the new motors, a coarse cross honing pattern has been introduced on the conrod and lower half bearing block, which will put a stop to this unintentional movement of bearing shells.

But for all the D3 TDV6's out there ....

Here in SA we have found a solution, which seems to be able to prevent this, provided the shells haven't started moving yet.

We are using an SA-developed product "Poly-TFE" which is mixed in with the correct engine oil as a once off treatment and effectively puts a stop to high wear and tear dry cold starts. In effect it coats the bearing shells and the journals with a nano-particle size Teflon coating. As those particles are 0.02 - 0.05 micron in diameter, spherical in shape with electrically neutral properties, they don't clog, don't block filters and oil passages and therefore just plain forward do the job.

EX AFRICA SEMPER ALIQUID NOVI
SEMPER IN FAECIBUS SUMUS SOLE, PROFUNDUM VARIAT

with kind regards

George Bosch
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
2003 Range Rover Td6
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi (sold)
And some more serious stuff

17th Aug 2012 8:15 am

DG
Site Moderator

Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934

Interesting hgbosch ....do you have any idea at what point or under what conditions the shells start to rotate. The other question I always have with these failures is what is the failure rate ? ....i.e. given that there are hundreds of thousands of D3's. 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021

17th Aug 2012 10:03 am

Frans@yamorna

Member Since: 20 Jan 2010
Location: Tzaneen
Posts: 109

2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto Vienna Green

And now Castrol SA and LR has made a deal whereby the latest top spec Magnatec Pro A5 is only available to LR workshops

.The independant ws can only get Magnatec Pro A3 from Catrol

Stupid :blub:What other brand of oil is of the same spec as Magnatec Pro A5 5w-30?? Big Country RR,NL Split Charge,FR Sump Guard,TP Monitor,BAS map

17th Aug 2012 1:21 pm

sacimiddx

Member Since: 09 Mar 2007
Location: hants
Posts: 2143

2014 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 HSE Auto Baltic Blue

that's the best looking Maya Gold I've ever seen Illegitimi Non Carborundum

17th Aug 2012 1:28 pm

hgbosch

Member Since: 25 Oct 2010
Location: Pretoria and Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 188

Frans@yamorna wrote:
And now Castrol SA and LR has made a deal whereby the latest top spec Magnatec Pro A5 is only available to LR workshops .The independant ws can only get Magnatec Pro A3 from Catrol Stupid :blub:What other brand of oil is of the same spec as Magnatec Pro A5 5w-30??

Hi Frans

contact TGWInduna on the 4x4community forum. He is agent for LiquiMoly, which is a far superior oil (imported) then what the local companies can come up with. He can supply you with the correct LM oils in 5lt, 20lt or 210lt bindings.

This is not a wild statement but borne out by a large number of oil analysis done, where the total base number of aged oil (8000km +) has been analysed. LM and Mobil1 always came out tops.

In an engine as finicky as the PSA 2.7 TDV6, in our case, only the best oil is good enough. EX AFRICA SEMPER ALIQUID NOVI
SEMPER IN FAECIBUS SUMUS SOLE, PROFUNDUM VARIAT

with kind regards

George Bosch
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
2003 Range Rover Td6
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi (sold)
And some more serious stuff

17th Aug 2012 2:18 pm

hgbosch

Member Since: 25 Oct 2010
Location: Pretoria and Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 188

sacimiddx wrote:
that's the best looking Maya Gold I've ever seen

Thanks

yes we take good care of it! Currently sitting at 183'000km and going like a rocket. EX AFRICA SEMPER ALIQUID NOVI
SEMPER IN FAECIBUS SUMUS SOLE, PROFUNDUM VARIAT

with kind regards

George Bosch
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
2003 Range Rover Td6
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi (sold)
And some more serious stuff

17th Aug 2012 2:20 pm

hgbosch

Member Since: 25 Oct 2010
Location: Pretoria and Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 188

DG wrote:
Interesting hgbosch ....do you have any idea at what point or under what conditions the shells start to rotate. The other question I always have with these failures is what is the failure rate ? ....i.e. given that there are hundreds of thousands of D3's.

Hi DG

was with TGWInduna at the motor engineers today taking pictures of two stripped TDV6 motors. The first one is the one with the melted piston (petrol in diesel turned out to be the cause after a diesel analysis).

The second one came into the workshop with a knocking sound. Was stripped just in time.

On both engines there were signs of the bearings starting to turn. The second engine with the knock, one of the big end bearing shells had been ground down wafer thin with a marked narrowing of bearing width in the middle of the shell due to excessive turning of the bearing shells.

There were also decisive chafing marks on the conrod and CR-bearing caps.

We will post pics as soon as they have been sent to me.

I wonder how LR are going to approach this one.

Currently looking for a way to save these engines.

To this end we urgently need data of these engines, torque settings, piston to sleeve tolerance etc. Any one who has got access, please email me or send pm.

There are at the moment some 30 TDV6 engines here in SA, that can be saved by machining various parts, fitting proper big end bearings (with tabs) and not that gemors that is currently in those engines. EX AFRICA SEMPER ALIQUID NOVI
SEMPER IN FAECIBUS SUMUS SOLE, PROFUNDUM VARIAT

with kind regards

George Bosch
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
2003 Range Rover Td6
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi (sold)
And some more serious stuff

17th Aug 2012 2:31 pm