DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - CHECK YER TOW BARS THIS WEEKEND.... VOSA ARE ON TO IT!!!

bambi

Member Since: 10 Apr 2009
Location: south yorkshire
Posts: 2059

My breakaway cable goes through the recovery eye then clips back on its self , plenty of spare cable.

Go buy a new cable and fit it, for the money you could change very couple of yrs or so, then you know it shouldn't fail through being worn.

6th Jul 2012 11:08 pm

-J's AUTOS-

Member Since: 14 Apr 2012
Location: Sheffield Yorkshire
Posts: 27

I love the detachable towbar as others have said its so neat and tidy, I tow a big caravan and after reading this It will be in the back of my mind whenever I tow anything in the future :/
I'm an mot tester and I've always thort/said its silly that it's part of the test to check the electrics which yes is a good thing but what about the towbar it's self... (not that many testers/people know a D3 or RRS has any electrics as their usually covered)

Cheers -J-

6th Jul 2012 11:34 pm

character

Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5779

2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Auto Alaska White

to answer the question of numbers that have failed:

1) Not everyone calls a "failure" a "failure", MOT test will only allow max of 3mm play (as amended from 2mm told to us by the VOSA qualified MOT tester at main LR dealers, oh and who identified our problem but have been told by other forum members this was wrong to say 22mm 7/07/12

), anything above that is a failure from what I have researched

2) An RTC where the trailer has been detached from towing vehicle may not be reported to VOSA unless the vehicle is required to have an Operators Licence which of course has only just started to come in to force with 3500kg vehicles towing likewise I believe the rules are similar in the event of an injury RTC

3) I doubt if the vehicle owner in the above situation would seek out the VOSA website and report such an event in the same way as its unlikely that the average joe would even know who VOSA are

4) Since our own failure (ie under MOT speak - Failure of fixed tow bar to chassis/failure or detachement imminent) there have been three from my own LR garage in the past few years that have been made good by a replacement cross member and one mentioned to me only this week where the guy lost a Brian James Motorshuttle enclosed trailer with a vehicle inside

5) Those repaired at the dealership or other places are not likely to be reported to VOSA anyway and therefore its only through a higher level of cross members being sold would it highlight at JLR and of course they're not going to report themselves are they

I guess yer need to ask yerself the question, why would JLR need to re-educate its dealership staff/service operation and create a service tool and poss repair solution under the watchful eye of VOSA if the numbers were so insignificant or the manner of the failure was one that could have been pre-empted by the vehicle owner. Now that you are armed with the info its up to you how you best deal with your own circumstances

The major headache is that the removeable bar fails without warning and is difficult to identify when insitu by just using yer hands ie you've got to get alot of weight on it or if it does move by hand then its FUBAR'd anyway which I guess is the approach JLR/VOSA are jointly working on at the moment to create a Service Action/due dilligence within the dealership network

Last edited by character on 7th Jul 2012 10:56 pm. Edited 2 times in total

6th Jul 2012 11:37 pm

DG
Site Moderator

Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934

Sorry Character but this really I fear is just further alarmist guess work.

The amount of play permitted in an MOTon a removable tow hitch is 3mm either way not 2mm

VOSA can be intrinsically involved in mechanical failure RTC's in conjunction with the police regardless of whether they are commercial or not

Quote:
Accident investigation and technical research
VOSA undertake technical investigations into potential manufacturing or design defects, highlighting safety concerns and monitoring safety recalls. We also support the Police by examining vehicles involved in accidents to identify contributory defects

Your own LR garage's experience "over years" may be entirely consistent to the existing scope of MOT failures reported via VOSA themselves...and let's remember that fixed tow bars are very unlikely to be removed from vehicles just for the MOT so their own figures suggest that the problem is minuscule.

If VOSA were that concerned then surely they would pre-empt a recall ...as recalls are for safety issues ...why would they only instruct service bulletin...and what does that achieve ...what would LR be actioning ...new cross members ...new tow hitches ??

More importantly why are VOSA telling you this before the manufacturer has spoken to hundreds of thousands of lets not for forget both RRS & D3 \ 4 owners?

My main concern is that there are hundreds of site users reading this thread who are now worried perhaps completely unnecessarily...... if there is to be advice let it come via an official notice from either LR or VOSA FFS

21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021

7th Jul 2012 12:14 am

amazing

Member Since: 05 Mar 2011
Location: chengdu
Posts: 1542

2011 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 HSE Auto Santorini Black

tow the line

so numbers are small and smaller than other makes too.

towing is hard to quantify regarding loading and force as driver style/roads/load (snatch recoveries) are all variables

it also appears the removable fares just as well as a fitted but Iam sure if you plan to do alot of towing you would fit one.( just as if you wanted to go offroad all the time you would not expect general purpose tyres to hold out as well as something dedicated)
so the equal failures could indicate a greater abuse of a fixed tow.

also bear in mind there are reported 8000 accidents due to tyre failure (NHTSA)

so yes its bad when it happens to you but you would be in the minority.

lets just bring back the nato hitch ..it looks cool too It is better to have and not need it then need and not have it.

7th Jul 2012 5:11 am

DiscoStu

Member Since: 09 Apr 2006
Location: London
Posts: 11412

Bring it back? Already got one

No problem with it on the MOT either

Surely LR issuing a new service protocol won't achieve anything as this 'fault' will affect older cars, the majority of which won't go to a LR dealer for a service anyway. Disco 5 HSE Lux
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peyiqaJrmMU

7th Jul 2012 7:42 am

pinhead

Member Since: 20 Dec 2010
Location: yorkshire
Posts: 877

2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Manual Adriatic Blue

I can actually see how important and potentially big this is, low reported failure rate can be attributed to a few factors

Removable tow bar being removed when not towing so not being picked up on mot
Many drivers are pretty numb and may not attribute the clunk when towing to being a problem so don't investigate those that do think there is a problem will probably look towards trailer brakes /hitch as the issue
Fixed towbars are only check able by removal of stay bars so this will not be picked up by mot or service dept but only through the seat of your pant and with the added strength of stay bars I can imagine it will be very badly worn by this point

Mate of mine towing a load of straw on triple axle trailer with p38 rangerover probably going too fast got into a snake after hitting a bad exp joint in the road he couldn't bring it under control and next thing he new it went round 540 degrees the smoke settled and he was staring at the 3 lanes of stopped on coming traffic on the a1 luckily they had all backed off when they saw it snakeing and he didn't hit any one or any thing he started the stalled motor back up did a u turn and drove steady home
My thoughts were would this have stayed on if it was a disco 3 with a detachable and how much worse could it have been if not

7th Jul 2012 8:12 am

B16 KJR

Member Since: 10 Jul 2006
Location: Rosyth, Fife
Posts: 3005

Quote:
Many drivers are pretty numb and may not attribute the clunk when towing to being a problem so don't investigate those that do think there is a problem will probably look towards trailer brakes /hitch as the issue

Thats correct. I have had a clunk from mine for a while and have recently fitted a complete new Alko drawbar coupling and stabiliser head. The wear on the drawbar shaft was WAY too much. However when I was away the other week it became apparent there was still a clunk and after reading this thread I checked the towbar.

There was definitely wear in the towbar fitting, not so much front to back, but side to side. Also the slightest touch of the green handle and the movement was dramatic. This little movement of the handle would happen when hitting a bump in the road. Once something gets a little slack and allows some movement, it soon gets worse very quickly.

Quote:
I fear is just further alarmist guess work.

I don't think its alarmist at all, Character has done us all a BIG favour in highlighting this issue. I never gave the towbar a thought as to the source of the clunk. He suggested we check the towbar, if you do and theres no play, then all is well. However like me, if there is play then at least you know about it and can take whatever action you feel is appropriate, in my case I wont use it. My caravan is far to valuable to risk it becoming detatched

7th Jul 2012 12:01 pm

WOODY179

Member Since: 01 Jun 2005
Location: Chesterfield
Posts: 3634

This whole thread is very alarmist, surely if any car is doing heavy tow work and has covered a high mileage, the tow bar and mounts should be checked for possible ware - surely what happened to Character is just normal ware and tare and should be expected.

It seems to me that anything that wares out due to conditions of use get reported to VOSA by Character

7th Jul 2012 3:10 pm

B16 KJR

Member Since: 10 Jul 2006
Location: Rosyth, Fife
Posts: 3005

Quote:
This whole thread is very alarmist,

Can't see how, he is only advising people to check their towbars, i'm glad I did

Quote:
It seems to me that anything that wares out due to conditions of use get reported to VOSA by Character

I don't know about that, but if there was nothing in it, then why are VOSA wasting their time by entering into discussions with JLR over nothing

7th Jul 2012 3:19 pm

DG
Site Moderator

Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934

I know that Character has honourable intentions with this thread and everyone's interests at heart. I do not wish to dismiss his words out of hand and I agree that if there is a problem with any aspect of D3\4 safety then it should be taken seriously and properly dealt with by both LR and other agencies like VOSA .......... all I am trying to point out is that we should be dealing with hard facts on failure ....not if's, might's, and maybe's which unfortunately is how the detail of the issue has come across IMO.

We have already seen B16 KJR order an expensive replacement tow bar to pull his nuclear sub with

.....I'm sure nobody wants to see other site users forking out sums perhaps unnecessarily. My honourable intention thus far is to try and offer a balance on the risk and establish failure rates from the available official data....s'all

If the site users believe that this is not required then by all means tell me and I will comment on this no further

21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021

7th Jul 2012 9:37 pm

Russell

Member Since: 24 Aug 2007
Location: Kent
Posts: 10564

Russell wrote:
If you do a search there are lots of cases of tow bars failing, but this is across all makes and models even with cases of fixed tow bars failing for all sorts of reasons.
We need to wait until VOSA and LR make a statement, which looking at Characters post is iminent.
As stated above the tow bar is rated at 3500kg so LR would be up against a massive issue and potential huge claim, I for one brought the car like many other people specifically for towing and wassold the vehicle specifically on that basis, i was also sold it on the fact the tow bar was removable! So I would be looking for full replacment and at no cost to me.
Think like others have said, do not panic but wait and see what happens.

As I have already said and as DG has said, lets not panic but wait to see what LR and VOSA come up with. After all if it is a design fault LR will have to correct it at their expense MY17 D5 1st Edition Namib Orange
MY15 D4 HSE Kaikoura Stone
MY12 D4 HSE Nara Bronze Sold and gone
MY11 D4 HSE Stornaway Grey Sold and gone
D3 S spec Silver Sold and gone
Tow bar, full length roof bars, side steps, tow bar storage unit, surround camers.
D4 camera club

7th Jul 2012 9:57 pm

B16 KJR

Member Since: 10 Jul 2006
Location: Rosyth, Fife
Posts: 3005

Quote:
We have already seen B16 KJR order an expensive replacement tow bar to pull his nuclear sub with

Just to clarify my position DG. I did not order an expensive replacement towbar because Character "panicked" me into it, I ordered it because I have had a clunk when towing for a while even after replacing the drawbar coupling. I never though about wear on the towbar until I read Characters post.

However, after reading his post I checked mine and found far too much movement on the bar for my liking from a safety point of view so I decided, all by myself, that I did not want to take the risk of putting my caravan and other road users at risk by using it.

You yourself, said that it would be an MOT failure if it moved by more than 3mm, well I could move it more than 3mm by hand, imagine what 1800kg of caravan would be able to move it

If you, or anyone else on the site wants to take the risk, knowing the movement on the towbar would be an MOT failure, then please yourself, I for one would not drive any motor vehicle that I knew to be un-road worthy.

7th Jul 2012 10:19 pm

Russell

Member Since: 24 Aug 2007
Location: Kent
Posts: 10564

No one has said you or they would. If you have excessive movment then it should be changed however if the movment is within the specified limit then sit tight and wait to see what happens.

MY17 D5 1st Edition Namib Orange
MY15 D4 HSE Kaikoura Stone
MY12 D4 HSE Nara Bronze Sold and gone
MY11 D4 HSE Stornaway Grey Sold and gone
D3 S spec Silver Sold and gone
Tow bar, full length roof bars, side steps, tow bar storage unit, surround camers.
D4 camera club

7th Jul 2012 10:26 pm

B16 KJR

Member Since: 10 Jul 2006
Location: Rosyth, Fife
Posts: 3005

Quote:
If you have excessive movment then it should be changed however if the movment is within the specified limit then sit tight and wait to see what happens.

Thats exactly what I said in an earlier post

Quote:
He suggested we check the towbar, if you do and theres no play, then all is well. However like me, if there is play then at least you know about it and can take whatever action you feel is appropriate, in my case I wont use it.

7th Jul 2012 10:36 pm