Member Since: 15 Jul 2005
Location: Middleton, Manchester
Posts: 1084
jzk wrote:
There are three reasons you might need a rope.
1) Yanking someone that is stuck - for this purpose you want a rope that is strong, but stretchy. You want it to absorb energy, then translate it into pull. Otherwise you will just rip off the recovery point.
2) Towing (which seems to be these ropes) - you don't want stretch.
3) Winch Extention - no stretch here either.
So will the strap satisfy (1) and a rope (2) and (3) Coffeecup March 2005 TDV6 S - Tonga Green - Manual May 2008 TDV6 SE - Stornoway Grey - Auto Dec 2010 SDV6 XS - Galway Green - Auto
19th Sep 2005 8:43 pm
jzk
Member Since: 15 Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 99
Coffeecup wrote:
jzk wrote:
There are three reasons you might need a rope.
1) Yanking someone that is stuck - for this purpose you want a rope that is strong, but stretchy. You want it to absorb energy, then translate it into pull. Otherwise you will just rip off the recovery point.
2) Towing (which seems to be these ropes) - you don't want stretch.
3) Winch Extention - no stretch here either.
So will the strap satisfy (1) and a rope (2) and (3)
Well, is the strap stretchy? They seem to indicate it can be for both towing and recovery, so I am skeptical.
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
Here's the problem...
When recovering vehicles, the biggest cause of damage / failed recovery is using the wrong rope or strop for the method of recovery, neither end of the disco 3 has it's recovery eyes on the chassis legs, both are on crossmembers, this means that using a progressively loaded pull with a strop where the stuck vehicle is able to put some power down to assist is preferable to prevent distortion of the chassis. Snatching a vehicle using a kinetic rope or strop is both dangerous and more likely to cause damage to one or both vehicles. if the vehicle has two recovery points, like on a defender or retro disco, it is preferable to use a spreader strop across both points to provide an equal pull both sides, hopefully preventing the chassis turning into a parralelogram this applies to both vehicles. where a one - sided pull or snatch is unavoidable, i.e. with a disabled vehicle, put the strop or rope on the side with the most friction on both vehicles. Always use points on the chassis, never on suspension components or theit mountings. The front eye on a Disco 3 is purely for towing, any attempt at using this for any form of snatch recovery will cause damage. note that I class 'towing' as recovering a vehicle that has become stuck but is still capable of putting power down
hope this helps
Cheers,
10forcash
19th Sep 2005 8:54 pm
Nickhearne
Member Since: 28 May 2005
Location: Beaconsfield Bucks
Posts: 992
If the front is not up to being snatched out then I would hate to end up buying the D3 I was in last week, as this was recovered by the front using a defender! It must have had a dozen goes B4 it came out!
Any one considering a ex-demo silver HSE I would think again, as this is where the ex land rover experience end up!
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19th Sep 2005 9:20 pm
10forcash
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
Nick,
i'm not saying that damage WILL happen, but COULD happen, i've seen a Jag. front end totally collapsed because it was (needlessly) snatched out of a field but I've also recovered a disco 1 that was TWOC'ed, from a field where it ended up totally bogged down to the point where none of the doors would open, the only damage was the door & steering lock where the scroats had barred them out / off. Recovery is an art and involves a lot of thinking - not easy when your / your mates hard earned pride-and-joy is at stake, although the priority is always people. a lot of it is basic 'o' level physics and maths (moments, vectors, kinetic energy etc. etc.) and becomes second nature after a while, the most difficult part is to stop the adrenalin kicking in and being able to be assertive enough to take control - as we saw on Sunday with the RR, there were about 15 bods round the vehicle, with a minimum of 16 opinions on the best recovery method.... possibly two or three would have worked safely....
the most difficult part is to stop the adrenalin kicking in and being able to be assertive enough to take control - as we saw on Sunday with the RR, there were about 15 bods round the vehicle, with a minimum of 16 opinions on the best recovery method.... possibly two or three would have worked safely....
Lucky Ray was there to take charge or that RR could have ended up a lot flatter The End
19th Sep 2005 11:56 pm
10forcash
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
Slimer wrote:
10forcash wrote:
the most difficult part is to stop the adrenalin kicking in and being able to be assertive enough to take control - as we saw on Sunday with the RR, there were about 15 bods round the vehicle, with a minimum of 16 opinions on the best recovery method.... possibly two or three would have worked safely....
Lucky Ray was there to take charge or that RR could have ended up a lot flatter
.... or flattened something / one else further down the hill
20th Sep 2005 7:43 am
BN
Member Since: 18 Mar 2005
Location: Here
Posts: 6463
Guys, as usual I have to say something and please read my concerns before you shoot me down as I am sure you will.
I have followed this thread and kept away until now. I want the fun to continue, but TFC it was not lucky Ray was there because it caused us a problem by losing him. It was the RR that lead to a loss of two of our marshalls and one of our guys disappeared and became stuck in a non visible place even though quite innocently. The lesson to me was that without good marshalling even in a fun run like ours qualified and skilled marshalling is vital at all times otherwise anything can happen within a nano second as we found.
Had the RR not turned over we would not have had a problem other than Laurences humourous gloop session. Marshalling stopped him and he suffered no damage. A foot further was a problem, because what Ray and I were concerned with was had he gone that foot further the mud suction under water would have ripped the whole front of his plastic bumber kit off, which could have ended in a grand or so of plastic having to be replaced.
What ever anyone does, qualified and fully trained marshalls are in my thoughts very essential at all times. That is why I have organised Wales with full marshall control and expert recovery and it is just a nice green lane excercise. I know of many green lanes and we could have done them already, but in the D3's my honest opinion from what I have seen so far is that you guys are not yet ready for it. It is a far different cry from laning in an old faithfull series LR to laning in a £40k car.
Sorry if I am an old stick in the mud (sorry about the pun) but fun ceases to be fun when something happens that is not controlled or controllable.
Talking about straps and recovery is fine and I am sure lots of you may have recovered vehicles, but possibly not new £40k personal ones.
OK shoot me down now, but I like you guys and would like at least to get our own marshalls trained before you go playing and reget it.
20th Sep 2005 8:28 am
Pelyma
Member Since: 06 Jan 2005
Location: Patching, Sussex
Posts: 15496
No spot on Brian, that is why I said in another post about training at recovery. Yes we all pootled around the course without any problems, but it is a dangerous game. I have what I believe is good kit from my research and looking at what expeditions use. However as I said I have no experience in using it. Yes I've read the info that came with it, Yes I read the magazines, but it is not like actually doing it and making decisions that the consequences of getting wrong could be fatal.
LRE do a winching and recovery course, I'm not likley to ever have a winch so the use of this course maybe limited. I would like guidance on recovery (not sure if they cover it in Level 2) not in words but by actually doing it with experts, but I think it would need to be done in smaller groups. What do you think?DS3 TDV6 HSE - Silver with Alpaca (old one) Gone
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20th Sep 2005 9:11 am
BN
Member Since: 18 Mar 2005
Location: Here
Posts: 6463
Paul, it is a balance as with all things. Level 2 does not cover much other than driving in a little more severe conditions and more challenging terrain, that is why they use the 110's as apposed to the D3. damage limitaion. Even LRE don't use the D3 for level 2.
I have expressed my concern because laning in a series is great fun and few worries. Laning in a new D3 does many things, it deceives the actual conditions by its superb quietness, ability and ride until you are stuck. The recovery is then even more difficult because damage would be the first thing on the owners mind.
Often in laning, when you are stuck, unless you are very lucky there is little choice as to which way the car comes out. What I mean is if the lead car gets through the following car may become stuck. It may be a choice of pulling the stricken car through the problem rather than in coffeecup and TFC's cases back out of the situation.
Training should be done in small groups of course and basic recovery is vital for any off roading. Laning by the way can result in side slip on waht may look perfectly level ground as grass water and tyres are not a good mix.
I lost a Landy a few years ago on a grass road in a mountain region. The LR was driving along and it statrted raining, so my guy stopped and parked up. As he closed the rear door the LR slid down the grass and slipped over the edge and he was an experienced 4x4 survival guy and the vehicle had very aggressive MTR's on. It was not worth winching that one out, maybe still there.
hi the recovery parts that you get will need to be tested each year and some times it is cheper to get new ? If any thing does goes wrong you may get involved with th hse Home of RLD Hidden winch mounts Spare wheel Locks Trailer Body Fabrication [email protected] D3/4 sump plates MY 14 sump plates and the Discovery Sport wheel protectors Discovery 5 wheel locks
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20th Sep 2005 12:32 pm
Nickhearne
Member Since: 28 May 2005
Location: Beaconsfield Bucks
Posts: 992
Re: Rcovery bits
RLD wrote:
hi the recovery parts that you get will need to be tested each year and some times it is cheper to get new ? If any thing does goes wrong you may get involved with th hse
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20th Sep 2005 12:47 pm
10forcash
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
Re: Rcovery bits
Nickhearne wrote:
RLD wrote:
hi the recovery parts that you get will need to be tested each year and some times it is cheper to get new ? If any thing does goes wrong you may get involved with th hse
I can believe this for commercial gain recovery, but not for personal use!
Nick, there's still a duty of care, even for events organised between individuals, although a record of visual inspections will normally demonstrate awareness of hazard, as will pull tests, i.e. attaching the strop / rope to a known load and straining with the vehicle. If you were to attempt recovery of a third party with equipment of an unknown condition, you could be liable in the event of injury, provided the injury was due to equipment failure, this is also the reason why first - aid kits don't have half the stuff in them they did ten years ago - to prevent making situations worse by inappropriate use of unfamiliar equipment. Generally, first aid is now trained as 'first responders', the idea being to stabilise rather than treat injuries.
20th Sep 2005 1:03 pm
Pelyma
Member Since: 06 Jan 2005
Location: Patching, Sussex
Posts: 15496
My straps have indicators stitched in them to show you if it has been over stressed, which seems quite a sensible idea.DS3 TDV6 HSE - Silver with Alpaca (old one) Gone
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20th Sep 2005 1:20 pm
10forcash
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
Pelyma wrote:
My straps have indicators stitched in them to show you if it has been over stressed, which seems quite a sensible idea.
Yes it is, although you should still be inspecting for visible damage.
What strops do you have?
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March 2005 TDV6 S - Tonga Green - Manual 
May 2008 TDV6 SE - Stornoway Grey - Auto 
this applies to both vehicles. where a one - sided pull or snatch is unavoidable, i.e. with a disabled vehicle, put the strop or rope on the side with the most friction on both vehicles. Always use points on the chassis, never on suspension components or theit mountings. The front eye on a Disco 3 is purely for towing, any attempt at using this for any form of snatch recovery will cause damage. note that I class 'towing' as recovering a vehicle that has become stuck but is still capable of putting power down
