DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Vehicle Software Upgrades

Ecosse

Member Since: 07 Jan 2005
Location: Grampian, Scotland
Posts: 889

Vehicle Software Upgrades

Martin has mentioned this in the Issues Section but I think it needs highlighting (Martin - could we perhaps, if other members agree it is a serious issue, have a separate topic at the top of Issues covering this?)

I have found from a lengthy discussion with the Regional Technical Manager of LR that it is intended that a future software release will remove the cabin pre-heat/pre-cool functions. What I think is significant is that this reveals a much bigger issue - LR can (& apparently intend) altering the features of our vehicles unilaterally & without owners permission! The heater is only one item - there are liteally dozens of functions that are software controlled on the cars; do we really want to have a situation where on getting a car back from servicing we don't know what it's "new" spec will be?!!

The dealer involved here was equally concerned as to the legal implications for them if they were the people who actually "altered" the vehicles. When I questioned it, it seemed that they would only have the latest software version & according to the dealer (& the LR technical manager) it means that even if you arrange for them not to update it at a service, apparently if eg the battery goes flat then the software has to be reloaded & you have the new "changed" spec!!

I think this issue is certainly considerably "bigger" than the immediate cabin heater problem, but would be pleased to have other member's views & suggestions. perhaps they could be posted here first & then Martin can update a posting on the Issues section?

18th Mar 2005 5:20 pm

Martin
Site Admin and Owner

Member Since: 06 Nov 2004
Location: Hook Norton
Posts: 18445

2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Manual Buckingham Blue

Here's my personal view of the situation.

Land Rover have got to start being careful of how they're treating their customers - the service and support from the main company (not the dealers) from what I've heard is verging on appalling in some areas - they really don't seem to have the correct procedures in place to deal with this. In some respects they seem good - LR Assist seem to know what they're doing, but the customer support seems poor.

Maybe they're not sure what they've ended up releasing to customers, in respect to the software, but they should be supporting what has gone out, as there has been plenty of development time work out what should be on the car or not, and to have left half a feature on the car is a bit lax really.

I wonder if BMW or Volkswagen/Audi Group have had similar problems with software on their cars, and how they were resolved?

Taking away a feature that's already on the car is dodgy ground, if only from a customer satisfaction point of view. They're not really making any friends are they?

The problem with software as opposed to hardware is that software is largely intangible - you don't recognise it's even really there until it isn't there any more or doesn't work properly. Software is easily changed or modified to fix issues, but as we're finding out LR are going the other way and not bothering to fix features they've evidently intended to be on the car, but for some reason were never finished properly and ended up in production.

I'm not sure that simply removing it now is good enough, they had plenty of opportunity to do so during testing if they were getting problems with it for whatever reason - and it's such a good feature to have on the car. Wha amazes me is that if it's all there bar a little bug that requires the radio to be on, why can't they do what every wants them to do and spend the software bug-fixing money on fixing the pre-heater to work instead of removing it?

Fixing the cabin heater probably wouldn't cost any more to do than removing it, so why not fix it and get the shed load of customer satisfaction and good publicity for giving something away rather than being the usual LR and winding customers up by fobbing them off and removing features from their cars. I'm sure that LR could build a lot of customer loyalty and brand value by helping customers out - it costs very little to do and they could get so much more out of it.

*steps down from soapbox*

I'll get a separate post up on the Issues forum, but if people stick comments/discuss the issue on here, I'll pick up any new info and copy it across. Ta!

Martin

18th Mar 2005 7:46 pm

Pelyma

Member Since: 06 Jan 2005
Location: Patching, Sussex
Posts: 15496

I think we need to take this to a wider audience, if you follow their logic if a system is deemed by LR not to be to standard they can remove it! eg They don't like dipping mirrors then we will remove the software that runs it. I took ownersip of a car that had a preheat and pre cool function and that is how it will stay! Perhaps auto express might like to hear?

18th Mar 2005 7:47 pm

Outrageous

Member Since: 11 Jan 2005
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Posts: 44

I think LR may be worried that someone will improperly program the fuel-burning heater and it will start up in their garage. There needs to be some kind of additional user input like pushing the key fob to start it up, so that it doesn't happen unintentionally in the wrong place and asphixiate someone.

18th Mar 2005 11:58 pm

DiscoMad

Member Since: 11 Jan 2005
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 190

Are you trying to tell us that this feature isnt available on any other LR vehicle. Maybe a high spec Range Rover ?

Well it certainly is on other Ford owned marques, such as Volvos...

Maybe one way out is for R to acknowledge the existance of the remote for the Webasto FBH ??

19th Mar 2005 12:46 am

Gurvan

Member Since: 02 Jan 2005
Location: Germany... Not far from both the US and Hard German rock...
Posts: 1089

2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Chawton White

Webasto has been identified as the maker of the FBH...

Might the solution of a remote not be with them ? I mean : has someone approached Webasto to find out if their remote can be fitted on a Disco 3 ?

That way, even at the expense of having to pay a small extra, we might be still able to use it without having to play with the radio... Or without fearing that LR might remove that feature !

Just my 2 cents... My Disco 3 is on order and I am waiting for a delivery end of june...

19th Mar 2005 11:00 am

BN

Member Since: 18 Mar 2005
Location: Here
Posts: 6463

Re: Unusable Functions

I have just taken possession of my D3 after some wait. I have a fantastic dealer, who in the end at their own expense and suggestion supplied me with a higher spec vehicle to complete the delivery. How good is that.

Having played with the car for a couple of days now, I find several features that are programmed, but not usable as many of you are saying. The most rediculous situation is like many of you, the Pre Heater. It is sitting there under the bonnet with nothing to do. The model is Webasto's 'Thermo Top V' a venturi type heater which is very efficient and better than one I have on a boat.

I spoke with Webasto and it appears to them that it is not connected due to possibly an unusal shaped fuel tank in the D3. Apparently there is a 'bucket' within the tank to avoid fuel starvation when offroading or the vehicle is at an unusal angle. Due to this, LR think it could starve the Webasto if it is running when the vehicle is stationary and cause damage????

I am not technical, but surely a small hole at the bottom of the 'bucket' would allow suffient fuel to feed in if the car is stationary or the feed to have been placed in the main tank. Anyone else heard this?

I have a RR and this has Pre Heat, which works amassingly, albeit a little noisy sometimes and smokey, what is the difference I want to know as the units are the same.

Oh, my D3 is a 'S' without satnav etc and what appears to be 1986 Ford Granada seats, but it is a tool for serious work.

I am in agreement with you all, if it is sold and fitted, it should work.

19th Mar 2005 4:51 pm

DiscoDuck

Member Since: 23 Jan 2005
Location: West Sussex UK
Posts: 126

2012 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 HSE Auto Baltic Blue

The cabin preheater is an undocumented feature which leads LR to feel they can remove it rather than to sort it. The CD players ability to play MP3 disks is also undocumented. Where do we stand if they want to remove that as well? I feel I should talk to Trading Standards, they may have some advice. Any one talked to Paul Gofton at webasto recently about their controller? D4 HSE
Blue

20th Mar 2005 5:42 am

BN

Member Since: 18 Mar 2005
Location: Here
Posts: 6463

DiscoDuck wrote:
The cabin preheater is an undocumented feature which leads LR to feel they can remove it rather than to sort it. The CD players ability to play MP3 disks is also undocumented. Where do we stand if they want to remove that as well? I feel I should talk to Trading Standards, they may have some advice. Any one talked to Paul Gofton at webasto recently about their controller?

Yes, I did on Friday and he was very helpful, but there must be some political situation involved as they sell to LR obviously and I think Webasto are watching and waiting. BN

20th Mar 2005 10:38 am

grommet

Member Since: 15 Feb 2005
Location: Northern California
Posts: 331

DiscoDuck wrote:
The CD players ability to play MP3 disks is also undocumented.

It was advertised in many pieces of literature & marketing, and it's in the current revision of the manual sitting in front me. Now only if it would show artist/track tag information.

On topic, here is my reply from another forum:

Did Land Rover advertise this feature in your market, or was it an undocumented "feature"? If LR made no promise of it existing or working, I'm not sure what you can complain about "legally." It's possible this was to be one of the abandoned features (like the Tire Pressure Monitoring System), but didn't quite get removed from the user interface accidentally. From an engineer's point of few, the removal might be considered a bug fix. D'oh!

I guess the only way you might be able to get them to fix this feature instead of removing it would be.... If enough owners complain... if there isn't a hard technical reason it can't be done... and if it wouldn't cost them a lot of money.

I wouldn't expect major features to be removed. Any changes to vehicles post-sale are normally only "bug fixes." Feature additions (or subtractions) are rare.

21st Mar 2005 10:37 pm

simon

Member Since: 11 Jan 2005
Location: Shropshire
Posts: 18296

2011 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 HSE Auto Fuji White

And yet the Workshop Manual in the Customer Settings section (the one you can download by paying LR) very clearly explains how to set and what the FBH does.

Setting of this is available to all TDV6 engines fitted with the FBH.

Funny then that this is to be a 'non-feature' in TDV6 engine vehicles now. Will they update the workshop manual then now too ?

Also quite clearly states that hi-line Message Centre vehicles (all above Entry spec that is) have the blasted Settings Menu I seem to be the only one without

-s

PS this all does seem to be in too many topics now and getting hard to track.

21st Mar 2005 10:47 pm

grommet

Member Since: 15 Feb 2005
Location: Northern California
Posts: 331

There are numerous functions mentioned that didn't even make it to production (Tire Pressure Monitoring System, Adaptive Cruise Control, etc.) in all revisions of the workshop manuals I've read.

The workshop manual is unreliable to determine functioning features. As it's not for general public consumption, it's even less scrutinized than the user manuals!

It would be nice if LR could fix or "offically add" this feature, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting based on history.

22nd Mar 2005 5:59 am

Ecosse

Member Since: 07 Jan 2005
Location: Grampian, Scotland
Posts: 889

Grommet - please bear in mind that our discussions on this forum are primarily UK orientated (there is a separate section for LR3 Specific). While I am sure all contributions are welcome, I believe that despite no location being shown on your details, you are USA based & therefore much of your information will not apply here & in particular comments from you as to what we can "legally" complain about are therefore quite irrelevant.

22nd Mar 2005 9:03 am

NightFox

Member Since: 02 Apr 2005
Location: Bedfordshire
Posts: 125

Does anyone know if the motoring press are aware of this? It would be interesting to see if LR responded if the issue started appearing in the letters pages of Autocar etc.

5th Apr 2005 1:06 pm

BN

Member Since: 18 Mar 2005
Location: Here
Posts: 6463

Hi Nightfox, re your comment 'does the press know' I think to make the press aware of our issues would devalue a basically very good car. The press usually will make a big deal, get their readers and we are left with a car that has been defamed and LR alienated. Look at the debate of the 4x4 users and people who do not want them on the roads becauase they are not safe. The reality is that the D3 is actually more pedestrian friendly than a mini or Renault rollerskate. I think the forum will get results eventually if we present facts as we are.

5th Apr 2005 4:21 pm