Member Since: 04 May 2013
Location: Bristol
Posts: 97
Puzzling clutch actuation problem
Morning gents,
I'm having ongoing problems with clutch actuation on my MY06 Tdv6 manual that I can't get to the bottom of.
The problem is created by simply driving the are at a steady speed on the motorway for say 20 miles or more. (I do lots of motorway). When I come off the motorway having not changed gear for a long period I find the clutchpedal goes heavy and sluggish for the first few depression after I've been cruising. Over a period of serial days the gear change becomes more clunky like there's more clutch drag.
If I bleed the clutch system (either pressure bleed or vaccuum bleed) the clutchpedal then becomes lighter in operation and the gear shift qualify and clutch operation becomes silky smooth and perfect again. If I just drive around town with lots of stop/start it remains good for many days. However as soon as I drive any distance at crise speed gradually the shift quality deteriorates and I have to bleed again.
Car has 120k miles. I replaced the clutch master cylinder and recalibrated but this hasn't helped. I'm using Shell DOT ESL fluid in the system as per the book. I can't see any visible signs of fluid leak on the pipework.
My only remaining theory is that the clutch pipes run close to the side to side exhaust pipe and perhaps there's a heat build up effecting the fluid at motorway speeds, or maybe a heat shield is missing?
Any advice or info on known issues with clutch actuation much appreciated...
14th Jan 2014 12:03 pm
Jasonb
Member Since: 04 May 2013
Location: Bristol
Posts: 97
Parts diagrams
After much investigation into the troublesome clutch actuation I believe the problem is looking like a heat ingress issue into the hydraulic system of the clutch.
The clutch pipes run close to the exhaust cross-over pipe in the engine bay. I'm wondering if there are some heat shields missing or removed before my ownership, perhaps removed when the injection pump belt was changed.
Does anyone have access to parts diagrams that show all the heat shields around the back of the engine bay so I can compare and identify anything missing ?
27th Aug 2014 9:59 am
SHARKYSHARKS
Member Since: 20 Dec 2008
Location: Saddleworth Oldham
Posts: 1954
Sounds like a clutch slave cylinder problem !!
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27th Aug 2014 11:12 am
hgrimmett
Member Since: 11 Oct 2009
Location: Bledlow
Posts: 901
I have exactly the same 'feature' on my Disco. It has been the same since I got it 5 years and 70k ago and it hasn't changed. I don't experience the immediate ongoing issues that you do, the system returns to normal soon after the initial gearchange after the cruise but it certainly hasn't got any worse over time. I'd be very interested to see what you find out...-------------------------------------------------------------------
D4 '15 (64) Se Tech Indus Silver
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27th Aug 2014 1:23 pm
Jasonb
Member Since: 04 May 2013
Location: Bristol
Posts: 97
Hi Nick,
I find if I park the car with the rear wheels up on ramps over night, in the morning the clutch is light and the gear change really really sweet. Soon as I cruise it's spoilt.
Gradually the ramps has less effect over time so I then gravity bleed the system for a few seconds (no pumping the clutch) and top up. It's then good again till I cruise then it's spoilt again. Trouble is I do a lot of motorway.
I've replaced all clutch system parts and pipes accept the slave because of the work involved. The only thing that's made the system more tolerant was added some heat shield material over the clutch piping, but I think it needs more work. So I'm thinking either the cross over pipe lagging is inadequate or there's something missing.
Jason
27th Aug 2014 6:02 pm
D4JWW
Member Since: 20 Oct 2009
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1318
I'm following with interest mainly because I have a manual, but only done 47k and no problem so far not the best gear chance, but can't complain, would ad that i prefer the feel of my old 200tdi D1 manual gearbox:oops: Happy to check for heat shields etc, but when did the problem start and is it still the origanal clutch? 120k is allot for origanal clutch. What do you mean with" calibrated after replacing the master cylinder"A few mods... and keeping it all running...Faultmate MSV2
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27th Aug 2014 9:26 pm
mark the spark
Member Since: 22 Jun 2011
Location: southampton
Posts: 2477
After a long motorway tow I experience a different feel on the clutchpedal as well
I wouldn't say it feels heavy but it does feel a bit weak for a few depressions and the bite point feels lower
Always seems to return to normal once clutch is worked a few times , always been like it for the 3 years I've had itMY05 SE D3 Manual my first LR what a car
MY10 HSE D4 auto
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27th Aug 2014 9:38 pm
zinke
Member Since: 22 Feb 2014
Location: Scunthorpe
Posts: 584
Mine does exactly the same, think its almost "normal" lol.
Pete.
27th Aug 2014 10:07 pm
Jasonb
Member Since: 04 May 2013
Location: Bristol
Posts: 97
Hi D4JWW
The had 108k mile when purchased car and the cam belt and auxiliary belts were replaced by a local independent LR at about 105k based on the invoices I have. I noticed the gear change quality and the heavy clutch after motorway fairly soon into ownership. So it's alway been like it for me.
I calibrated the master cylinder using SDD functions which involves holding down the clutch so the ECU can understand when the pedal is fully down.
I've seen a lot on the forum about manual box owner discussing poor shift quality on the D3 and living with it. When mine is bad getting reverse in the morning can be awkward and first in traffic - its all because of clutch drag. If I bleed the system briefly or put the back wheels on ramps I can create a truly fluid and smooth gear change for a period of time. I've even changed the fluid cap incase it was causing a vacuum, in fact I find leaving it a little lose can aid shift quality remain good for a longer period.
It's as if there's an air bubble in the system that moves around and sometimes the system works well and other times it throws the whole thing out. I've tried reverse bleeding, pressure bleeding, the full works. I can make it good but take it down the motorway a few miles and things start to go bad. The more motorway I do the worse it becomes. If I bleed and drive around town only it will stay good with quality shift for much longer perhaps a week.
My car now has 132k miles. I don't know if its on original clutch or not. The car had never towed before I owned. Like I say, just after a brief bleed the shift quality and clutch feel are butter smooth.
I've also changed all the transmission oils in gearbox, transfer box and diffs with either genuine LR oils and proper Shell equiv.'s - this made no difference.
Reading some of the replies from lower mileage cars I'm now thinking it unlikely I have heat shields missing from the cam belt change as the lower mileage ones wouldn't have had the same works performed.
The problem is mental. The clutch can be heavy and change clunky - I can reverse up the ramps (or park down hill) and within about 6 or 7 pumps of the clutch the pedal feel goes much lighter and the shift quality is temporary restored. If I do the opposite ie. put the front wheels of the car on the ramps (or park uphill) the clutch becomes more heavy and shift more clunky. If I drive the car aggressivly ie. brake sharply while the clutchpedal is up or coasting in neutral that can sometimes have the same effect as putting back wheels on the ramps.
If it's a heat ingress issue in the clutch system, then it's in the design of the car, either that or there's air in the system that is next to impossible to extract and the heat from running makes the air expand and move around the system and cause issues.
27th Aug 2014 10:15 pm
hgrimmett
Member Since: 11 Oct 2009
Location: Bledlow
Posts: 901
So whilst I notice a change in the clutch feel I've never felt that the actual shift quality of the 'box has changed. Despite the usual spring issues (floppy stick) the shift quality is fine. Ours is at 138k on the original DMF and clutch.-------------------------------------------------------------------
D4 '15 (64) Se Tech Indus Silver
Tesla Model Y LR (22)
Audi TT Roadster 225 (52)
Tesla Model 3 LR (70) (gone)
Porsche Boxster '96 2.5 5spd project (P)
Mini R52 S (54)
BMW 330e eDrive MSport '16 (gone)
D3 '07 (56) XS TDV6 Buckingham Blue (gone)
28th Aug 2014 10:32 pm
Iguana
Member Since: 14 Oct 2013
Location: 'Sunny' Zomerset
Posts: 9402
+1 for the above, after long M-way runs I get a stiff clutch on the first and sometime second change, after that all is fine with the world - Occasionally happens after leaving it overnight as well
Seems like it's quite normal for thing for D3 manuals Iggy/Ieuan
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