DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Adjustable Height Sensor Rods

Slimer
Site Moderator

Member Since: 06 Jan 2005
Location: Last Exit to Nowhere
Posts: 16295

The End

8th Mar 2009 5:41 pm

BrewMonkey

Member Since: 25 Apr 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 70

There are pros and cons to all solutions, including changing calibration values. Without the strategy book for the whole suspension control algorithm (which I presume none of us have, as it would very likely be stolen property), there is risk in any method of altering the values. Wherever you change a variable, it is likely that there will be some part of the control algorithm performing calculations on other unmodified variables. In a closed-loop control system, depending on how the algorithm is written, this may be completely fine, or it will potentially cause stress certain parts being controlled.

Looking at the I/O for the air suspension control module, I'm guessing that what BBS SPY is doing should be completely fine though and a very neat solution (no need to get any hands dirty!)

I can't agree with the statement that the sensor height mods are inherently dangerous though. The production height sensors will be built to certain tolerances and the outputs of each will vary, giving slightly different readings for each wheel anyhow. The adjustable sensor height mods may actually be able to correct slight inaccuracies in the system. If the locking nut keeps everything secure, that's great.

BBS SPY, do you know the production line calibration procedure for the suspension height sensors and also the accepted tolerance range for the sensors?

Also, BBS SPY - a small change in the way you articulate your thoughts may help you stop rubbing people up the wrong way.

Statements like this:

BBS SPY wrote:
I personally have 2 IDS systems here and have spent the past four years studying it down to a level you really cannot ever imagine

don't really endear you to people like myself who can imagine the level of detail and furthermore know exactly the level of hacking required to subvert the security algorithms, checksums, seed&key etc. Your constant implications that vehicle control systems are black magic and requires mystical levels of skill to understand is wearing a bit thin. The GTR gives most people a very good understanding of the electrical and electronic systems and also the protocols used. Most of the protocols are industry standard and when they are not, a simple CAN trace can reveal exactly what's going on (which CAN analysis products are you using - Vector, Kvaser, Softing, Dearborn Group...I could go on and on...). Once the security has been bypassed, finding out how things work is a more a slog than an intellectual challenge. And when I say slog, I mean it - I know plenty of firms that do this kind of thing and they work incredibly hard to achieve results. I'm not directly involved in the hacking arena (I'm more on the 'legit' side for wont of a better word), but have a high level of respect for the guys involved.

Your product looks fine and very well made and I can attest that to get the functionality you claim to have would take a considerable amount of time and effort, thus justifying the cost compared to much simpler systems. Just ease back on some of the 'you'll never understand what we do because it's so complicated' rhetoric and you'll make many more friends. '08 LR3 V8 SE in Stornoway Gray, Alpaca interior. Xenons, Cold Weather Pack, Bluetooth & Sirius. General Grabber AT2s. EBC Sport Rotors & Green Stuff Pads, Traxide SC80 kit half fitted...
'11 Mini Cooper S Countryman, True Blue.

8th Mar 2009 6:19 pm

Neil Pettersen

Member Since: 23 Nov 2007
Location: Cutting the grass
Posts: 1254

Good morning,

BBS Spy and everyone else is entitled to an opinion in the free
world . Some folk just don't want to read an opinion by someone else.
Hey, it's a forum and there's a lot of strings tuggin'.

Now someone else can have a tug , and life goes on.

Enjoy your day everyone.

EDITED TO FRIENDLY FORM. : Monday lunch time ..... it's getting hot and I'm getting mellow

Last edited by Neil Pettersen on 9th Mar 2009 3:06 am. Edited 1 time in total

8th Mar 2009 9:59 pm

caverD3

Member Since: 03 Jul 2006
Location: Oberon, NSW
Posts: 6922

2012 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 SE Auto Fuji White

Shortened rods cannot be compared withe defender case. The problem was not the fact that his suspension was modified but how it was done and the careless manner in which it was done that lead to the failure in the accident.
Legalities will vary from country to country and the law should be check by anyone who modifies their vehicle in any way. I am not sure what is required for a suspension lift to be legal in the UK or elsewhere (maybe someone can find out and post) but here a lift up to 50mm can be done without an engineers cert.
The D3 is designed to run at various heights without modification already so an argument could be made that the D3 is still running at standard heights.
However insurance companies love getting out of paying if they can so it would be a good idea to inform them of the modification. Maybe calling it something less threatening? " Davey B Adjustable connectors"? â€œThere are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely gamesâ€
Ernest Hemmingway
D4 3.0 Active Diff, Adaptive Lights, High Beam Assist, Surround Cameras, Privacy Glass.
D3 2.7:Adaptive Headlights,Electronic Rear Diff,ARB Bar,Blaupunkt Speakers,JVC Powered Subwoofer,Removable Snorkel,Mitch Hitch,Pioneer After Market Head Unit,Steering Wheel Control Adaptor,Remote Adjustable Supension Rod System, Taxside Dual Battery System.

8th Mar 2009 10:29 pm

disco4x4au

Member Since: 19 Jan 2006
Location: Perth
Posts: 409

I can't see how swapping the rods could affect the EAS calibration?? The car is calibrated under the _assumption_ that both sets of the sensor rods are the same length. As long as you keep left/right front and rear pairs the same (and I suppose with adjustable rods, that might not always be the case) the relative calibration will always be true (as long as you stay within the max/min of the system height).

Personally I prefer the rod solution to messing with the electronic programming. It's easily removable (mine co-exist on the car with the original ones), you only use it when required off-road (so no undue strain on the CV/axle/bushes) and it's cheap.

Cheers,

Gordon ex - 2006 D3 TDV6 SE, silver, with lots of stuff - R.I.P.
ex - 2009 D3 TDV6 SE, silver, had lots of stuff too!
Now - 2010 RRS 3.0 TDV6, rimini red, 18" rims + Cooper LTZ, rear eLocker, Spider tuning box, GOE protection plates and rock sliders, GOE 3way shortened rods.

9th Mar 2009 2:08 am

GraemeS

Member Since: 17 Mar 2008
Location: NSW
Posts: 706

2010 Discovery 4 3.0 TDV6 SE Auto Nara Bronze

disco4x4au wrote:
I can't see how swapping the rods could affect the EAS calibration?? The car is calibrated under the _assumption_ that both sets of the sensor rods are the same length. As long as you keep left/right front and rear pairs the same (and I suppose with adjustable rods, that might not always be the case) the relative calibration will always be true (as long as you stay within the max/min of the system height).

Not really. The calibration is done by measuring the hub-to-guards at each corner - there are not assumptions re rods or sensors. If a new rod is fitted, the system is meant to be re-calibrated. If a sensor is removed then replaced (ie the same sensor), the system is still meant to be recalibrated, presumeably due to sloppy mounts for the sensor thus allowing a different sensor position. However I suspect the difference in height achieved by using a new factory rod would be negligible. Sagged coil springs (or just unevenly loaded) on coil D3 would probably show a lot more height variation yet would still be considered safe.

9th Mar 2009 8:21 am

daveyb

Member Since: 14 Oct 2007
Location: SF
Posts: 135

Wow. Go on a Snow Recce and all heck breaks loose?? BBS, I completely support many of your thoughts. Many of us have modified our stock rods to suit our individual needs. My kit simply makes it easier for the owner to perform the same type of modification - only more controlled. With an ever growing world of legal litigation, I can appreciate your comments. In my opinion, anyone who willfully modifies his or her own vehicle takes on a certain amount of personal liability with their own decision and or action to modify. Is this a clear case argument in court? Certainly not. God willing, I hope to never find out. This mod has been going on for nearly two years now and I've yet to hear of a single negative report. Perhaps my kit or any other "modification system" should be sold as "Non-Specific Thinga-Ma-Jig" of separate bits which the purchaser assembles and does what ever he wants with the kit. I don't know. Perhaps I should just pull the kit from the market, file a lawsuit against the Tire Shop which sold me my over-sized tires which now are beyond LR spec resulting in inadequate braking which caused me to bump into my own garage door. I take no offense to BBS or anyone else who posts their opinions. I'm just bummed that a neat idea can polarize our community.

With Respect,

Dave 2006 D3 Tonga Green
275/65/18 GY DuraTracs - ARB w/ EP9.0 - Sasquatch Rods

10th Mar 2009 12:10 am

daveyb

Member Since: 14 Oct 2007
Location: SF
Posts: 135

It is also clearly stated in my directions that these are for off-road only. Factory rods are recommended for ALL tarmac travel. 2006 D3 Tonga Green
275/65/18 GY DuraTracs - ARB w/ EP9.0 - Sasquatch Rods

10th Mar 2009 12:15 am

LandyAir

Member Since: 02 Apr 2009
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 3

Whilst it is very important that the sensor linkage lengths are all changes by an equal amount, shortening a small amount is basically OK as the system will not notice any difference at normal heights used. The detailed calibration that Landrover set out is designed to get the vehicle as level as possible and know where in the travel range a wheel is to a high degree of accuracy as at the highest a and lowest (tie down mode) a small height variation can be a problem. It is also worth noting that the air compressor will be working harder if used in the higher settings often.

2nd Apr 2009 8:03 am

Bushwanderer

Member Since: 27 Nov 2007
Location: Northern Rivers, NSW, Australia
Posts: 2050

2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Manual Buckingham Blue

So, seemingly CaverD3 is well ahead of you.

Wouldn't it be ethical of you to offer to purchase his design at a reasonable price? The Bearded Dragon

2nd Apr 2009 8:19 am

caverD3

Member Since: 03 Jul 2006
Location: Oberon, NSW
Posts: 6922

Thanks Pete.
To answer landyair,
If the rods are changed exactly equaly there should be no issues. If you are worried you could get your delaer to a full calibration as well as the wheel alignment whilst in geometry set mode.
My rods are set with a template set to the length or the OEM rods.
Don't see why your compressor would work any harder.

The air in the tank is kept at 23 psi and the air in the bags is less. Air is only used when off road regardless of height setting when certain TR settings are used for cross linking the suspension (pushhing opposite wheel down) and on road to self level so once at the set height it will act the same.
I stand to corrected but that is my understanding.

I am ready to make a few initial sets at a special price.

â€œThere are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely gamesâ€
Ernest Hemmingway
D4 3.0 Active Diff, Adaptive Lights, High Beam Assist, Surround Cameras, Privacy Glass.
D3 2.7:Adaptive Headlights,Electronic Rear Diff,ARB Bar,Blaupunkt Speakers,JVC Powered Subwoofer,Removable Snorkel,Mitch Hitch,Pioneer After Market Head Unit,Steering Wheel Control Adaptor,Remote Adjustable Supension Rod System, Taxside Dual Battery System.

2nd Apr 2009 1:00 pm

daveyb

Member Since: 14 Oct 2007
Location: SF
Posts: 135

Bushwanderer wrote:
So, seemingly CaverD3 is well ahead of you.

Wouldn't it be ethical of you to offer to purchase his design at a reasonable price?

Is this directed towards me? Caver and myself have exchanged information quite some time ago. Stand up fellow. Our ideas are similar in the result, not the method. I do agree that Caver's system IS well ahead of mine from the technological aspect. Hmmm, and all this time I thought I had ethics

2006 D3 Tonga Green
275/65/18 GY DuraTracs - ARB w/ EP9.0 - Sasquatch Rods

2nd Apr 2009 1:27 pm

caverD3

Member Since: 03 Jul 2006
Location: Oberon, NSW
Posts: 6922

What Daveyb has produced will shorten rods to permanently raise the height (at whatever height you wish). This is a nicely manufactured fix to replace the DIY job done by others to shorten the rods. You will need to get a wheel alignment done if you permanently fit them.
Mine will raise and lower at the press of a button. No problems with wheel alignment as long as you remember to switch it off when back on road. It will also have a nitto connection for an air line so you don't need to buy a compressor.
Mine is over twice the price of the daveybs rods but a more complete solution. So different market point. â€œThere are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely gamesâ€
Ernest Hemmingway
D4 3.0 Active Diff, Adaptive Lights, High Beam Assist, Surround Cameras, Privacy Glass.
D3 2.7:Adaptive Headlights,Electronic Rear Diff,ARB Bar,Blaupunkt Speakers,JVC Powered Subwoofer,Removable Snorkel,Mitch Hitch,Pioneer After Market Head Unit,Steering Wheel Control Adaptor,Remote Adjustable Supension Rod System, Taxside Dual Battery System.

2nd Apr 2009 11:06 pm

LandyAir

Member Since: 02 Apr 2009
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 3

Sorry Moderators, I did not mean to make this a Commercial posting, simply re-inforce our experience in this area.
The air springs and air supply system operate at much higher pressures than you think, the air tank is held at 160 to 200 psi, the air springs at maximum payload and extended height would be able to be inflated to at least 160psi if required, normal on-road pressure may be a lot lower but the point is this is a high pressure system compared to the majority of air spring systems on the market.
If Caver is interested in talking to us we may be able to come to some arrangement that would be of benefit to Dicso3 members also as we could use our experience to reduce the price of the system.

I was not suggesting that you should not simply fit shorter linkages as this may be fine for some users, I was simply presenting our opinion, based on our understanding of the system.

2nd Apr 2009 11:26 pm

caverD3

Member Since: 03 Jul 2006
Location: Oberon, NSW
Posts: 6922

I wish the cost could be lower.

Actuators are the expensive part, then you have to connect them to the vehicle, by spec brackets. Not simple or cheap to make but Matzker system is about $3000. â€œThere are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely gamesâ€
Ernest Hemmingway
D4 3.0 Active Diff, Adaptive Lights, High Beam Assist, Surround Cameras, Privacy Glass.
D3 2.7:Adaptive Headlights,Electronic Rear Diff,ARB Bar,Blaupunkt Speakers,JVC Powered Subwoofer,Removable Snorkel,Mitch Hitch,Pioneer After Market Head Unit,Steering Wheel Control Adaptor,Remote Adjustable Supension Rod System, Taxside Dual Battery System.

2nd Apr 2009 11:49 pm