Member Since: 07 Mar 2015
Location: Dorset UK
Posts: 234
Is oil pump failure and crankshaft failure one and the same?
Hi All,
There is a long drawn out thread on the SA 4x4 forum in regards to crank failure, ignore the 16% failure as it is totally distorted, however the belief is it is around 5% as there have been an actual 33 failures reported on the forum, 10 of the 43 were by Toyota owners
The question raised is the crank failure always instigated by oil pump failure? There is some logic but my belief is that the two are different as the oil pump casting catastrophically fails and does not partially fail "leaking" first causing the bearing failure.
What is the experience in the UK...Owning a Discovery 3 is like dating a model.. a firm body and shape, wow.. the ride is fantastic > for this your wallet can take a pounding and you worry about being deflated at any time...
2009 Model D3 HSE
18th Apr 2015 2:56 pm
sean 471
Member Since: 26 Apr 2011
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 2990
Different.
Oil pump failure is a design fault on the casing as it's not strong enough
18th Apr 2015 2:58 pm
longclose
Member Since: 07 Mar 2015
Location: Dorset UK
Posts: 234
Hi Sean, yes the oil pump design and failure is already understood, but does the start of the failure cause loss of oil pressure and ultimate bearing failure on the crankshaft?
That is what is being insinuated in the thread on the SA forum.... I also think they are different.. but there does not appear to be crank failures on the D4 which has the later pump design... everyone here is looking for a preventative measure on the D3 as the engine repair cost is prohibitive..
The truth is that probably on Landrover know the real reason but would never release the reason why as it does not justify a recall due to the relatively small numbers. They have recognised it on Topix and will warrant upto 7 years or 150k in SA as long as it has been serviced by a franchised dealer.Owning a Discovery 3 is like dating a model.. a firm body and shape, wow.. the ride is fantastic > for this your wallet can take a pounding and you worry about being deflated at any time...
2009 Model D3 HSE
18th Apr 2015 3:07 pm
Nodge68
Member Since: 05 Sep 2014
Location: Newquay
Posts: 1014
I would suggest that the bearings fail in time due to the slow build up of oil pressure at startup. My theory is, after a few thousand starts with delayed pressure build up, the bearings hammer and begin to turn. This eventually blocks the oil feed for the crank pin, spinning the bearing. The oil pump failure allows the timing belt to slip, stopping the engine as pistons hit valves. The engine wouldn't run long enough to seize, in this instance. Cranks appear to fail to, quite why, I've yet to fathom, but it's likely a design fault or the crank is under damped.Freelander SE 2005 Auto.
D3 TDV6. Gone.
Is going to follow my post & explain about a specific batch of 2.7 D3's
That have an engine build fault where the crank shaft main bearings move in their housings & cause failure of the crank.....it's a design / build / parts issue.
There is somewhere a reference on here to D3's build numbers between this & that are in this batch
An oil pump failure would (to me) see failure of crankshaft mains & big / small end bearings....
Keep an eye on the thread & someone will pop up with the data....BREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
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Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
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Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
18th Apr 2015 6:25 pm
hugeviking
Member Since: 08 Jun 2010
Location: cotswolds
Posts: 1482
Does the oil pressure on a D3 really take longer than normal to raise up to an acceptable pressure ?
The reason I ask, is that as I recall, the oil pressure sensor on many (older) cars was in the block near the crank and possibly near to the oil pump and therefore would see oil pressure quickly. I understand that the sensor on the D3 is high up possibly near the cams, and this is why it takes longer for the oil light to go out, and in fact the pressure down at the crank is raised quicker than this. ??
Andi.
18th Apr 2015 9:21 pm
longclose
Member Since: 07 Mar 2015
Location: Dorset UK
Posts: 234
Nodge68 wrote:
I would suggest that the bearings fail in time due to the slow build up of oil pressure at startup. My theory is, after a few thousand starts with delayed pressure build up, the bearings hammer and begin to turn. This eventually blocks the oil feed for the crank pin, spinning the bearing. The oil pump failure allows the timing belt to slip, stopping the engine as pistons hit valves. The engine wouldn't run long enough to seize, in this instance. Cranks appear to fail to, quite why, I've yet to fathom, but it's likely a design fault or the crank is under damped.
Thanks for all the replies, the conclusion above is where I sit, the oil filter is situated in the V of the block for easy access. This requires the oil to come all the way from the sump fill the filter housing before it goes back to lubricate the bearings... still not sure whether South Africa is really having more failures than the UK or just hysteria running on the 4x4 forum.
It would be good to know if this is a "batch" problem or are all TDV6 prone to bearing slip?Owning a Discovery 3 is like dating a model.. a firm body and shape, wow.. the ride is fantastic > for this your wallet can take a pounding and you worry about being deflated at any time...
2009 Model D3 HSE
19th Apr 2015 8:08 am
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934
To work out whether the failure rate is greater you would need to know the D3 \ D4 sales volumes for SA year on year since 2004 then identify the MY with failure. If the failure rate for each year is greater than 1% of sales of that MY then there could be a local problem...if not then it is normal. Without this information they are just holding a wet finger in the air tbh 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
19th Apr 2015 9:36 am
longclose
Member Since: 07 Mar 2015
Location: Dorset UK
Posts: 234
Just over 7000 D3 sales in SA from the published statistics.
The major indies have all had about 10 each (crank failures with virtually all of them down to bearing failure as the initial cause) the main dealers all claim around 5 each so for Durban where I stay it would be I guess be around 30-40 tops.
My estimated guess would be around 150 nationally with 3 major population centres making 2%. This thread is more about establishing if the bearing slip is the main cause and is this lubrication failure, design or quality production batch.
There are obviously failures in the UK but they do not appear to have the same profile in the UK. Problem is here these vehicles are bought on finance with extended warranties covering about £2k maximum on a 7 year old vehicle, engine sub replacement with labour is around £7k so they quite often do not make it through to repair.
So a 2008 D3 with 80k miles sells here for around £12k due to poor residuals, a 2010 D4 is around £23k with the equivalent mileage. So I bought 2 for 1 Owning a Discovery 3 is like dating a model.. a firm body and shape, wow.. the ride is fantastic > for this your wallet can take a pounding and you worry about being deflated at any time...
2009 Model D3 HSE
19th Apr 2015 10:14 am
Rich84
Member Since: 26 Jun 2013
Location: South Australia
Posts: 238
I remember reading somewhere that new oils tested in Africa showed a significantly lower TBN than say, oil sold in Europe, and HTHS viscosity outside of spec for the ACEA rating required for the TDV6.
May go a way toward explaining the high failure rate of TDV6 engines in Africa.
I also remember seeing at least a couple of failures due to incorrect oil ie 20w50 being used.
I also remember seeing that LR were extending OSI's to around 25,000km. Way too long!
Critical that the correct oil is used on these engines, not just 5w30 but the ACEA spec too, and changed at 10-15K km intervals.2008 RRS TDV6 - Chawton White/Black/Lined Oak - 20's, h/k, sunroof - 350K KM.
2010 Audi A6 3.0T S-Line - Phamtom Black/exclusive 2-tone valcona 184K
2000 Audi A4 avant 1.8t Q Sport - Phantom Black/black 385K KM
1990 Nissan Pintara TRX - red - lots of mods - 439K KM
19th Apr 2015 11:47 pm
longclose
Member Since: 07 Mar 2015
Location: Dorset UK
Posts: 234
This subject around oil quality and viscosity has been debated on the SA 4x4 forum, it is something I have highlighted, along with the boundary lubrication due to the oil filter stuck up on the top of the engine. The issue of incorrect oil filter fitment has also been highlighted on this forum already.
What is clear is that there have been crank failures whereby the vehicle has been serviced at the main dealers through its life with OEM spec. oil. The truth is that no one really knows if the statistics (other than Landrover) are worse in SA than the ROW.
My belief is that the pain in SA is far greater when a failure happens due to the cost to fix in local currency, this is pure instinct but unless we had published figures we will never know...Owning a Discovery 3 is like dating a model.. a firm body and shape, wow.. the ride is fantastic > for this your wallet can take a pounding and you worry about being deflated at any time...
2009 Model D3 HSE
20th Apr 2015 8:39 am
longclose
Member Since: 07 Mar 2015
Location: Dorset UK
Posts: 234
Rich84 wrote:
I remember reading somewhere that new oils tested in Africa showed a significantly lower TBN than say, oil sold in Europe, and HTHS viscosity outside of spec for the ACEA rating required for the TDV6.
May go a way toward explaining the high failure rate of TDV6 engines in Africa.
I also remember seeing at least a couple of failures due to incorrect oil ie 20w50 being used.
I also remember seeing that LR were extending OSI's to around 25,000km. Way too long!
Critical that the correct oil is used on these engines, not just 5w30 but the ACEA spec too, and changed at 10-15K km intervals.
PS. it would be great if you could find any links to the points above...Owning a Discovery 3 is like dating a model.. a firm body and shape, wow.. the ride is fantastic > for this your wallet can take a pounding and you worry about being deflated at any time...
2009 Model D3 HSE
20th Apr 2015 8:41 am
Nodge68
Member Since: 05 Sep 2014
Location: Newquay
Posts: 1014
hugeviking wrote:
Does the oil pressure on a D3 really take longer than normal to raise up to an acceptable pressure ?
The reason I ask, is that as I recall, the oil pressure sensor on many (older) cars was in the block near the crank and possibly near to the oil pump and therefore would see oil pressure quickly. I understand that the sensor on the D3 is high up possibly near the cams, and this is why it takes longer for the oil light to go out, and in fact the pressure down at the crank is raised quicker than this. ??
Andi.
Yes the TDV6 does take a lot longer than most engines to build up oil pressure, particularly if it's not been run for a couple of days. I timed mine this morning as I hadn't run it since Friday evening. The oil light took just under 3 seconds to go out. If the engine has been run earlier in the day, this delay drops to just over 1 second.
The comparison with older engine designs isn't relevant to the TDV6. While you are correct in thinking that the oil pressure switch being at the top might delay pressure build up at the switch, that's only the symptom of the problem. There is a delay in oil pressure to the whole engine. This is I believe due to the top mounted filter draining down over a few hours. This means that the filter has to fill with oil, before the oil can reach any other part of the engine. Looking at the oil flow diagram, the crank is almost the last place oil reaches. So by the time the light has gone out, oil might not have reach the crank. This is why I believe these engines fail. Especially if they get lots of stop start driving. Motorway munchers seem to do substantial miles before the onset of failure.
By comparison, my MGF VVC oil light goes out during cranking, as did my V6 Freelander. The pressure build up in the TDV6 is positively sluggish compared to those engines.Freelander SE 2005 Auto.
D3 TDV6. Gone.
20th Apr 2015 2:00 pm
hugeviking
Member Since: 08 Jun 2010
Location: cotswolds
Posts: 1482
Nodge68, thanks for your reply.
I take it there is not a non return valve on the filter inlet to stop oil draining back into the sump ?.
Rightly or wrongly, In order to make sure there is plenty of oil pressure at the turbo' I have got in to the habit of waiting a second or two after the oil light extinguishes before touching the accelerator pedal, maybe this helps the crank bearings too ? I wonder how many people rev the engine immediately on start up or even have the accelerator pedal depressed to some degree whilst cranking in order "to aid starting".
On my trusty focus, now on over 200,000, the oil light extinguishes almost immediately the key is turned.
Thanks, Andi.
20th Apr 2015 7:24 pm
Rich84
Member Since: 26 Jun 2013
Location: South Australia
Posts: 238
Nodge68 wrote:
hugeviking wrote:
Does the oil pressure on a D3 really take longer than normal to raise up to an acceptable pressure ?
The reason I ask, is that as I recall, the oil pressure sensor on many (older) cars was in the block near the crank and possibly near to the oil pump and therefore would see oil pressure quickly. I understand that the sensor on the D3 is high up possibly near the cams, and this is why it takes longer for the oil light to go out, and in fact the pressure down at the crank is raised quicker than this. ??
Andi.
Yes the TDV6 does take a lot longer than most engines to build up oil pressure, particularly if it's not been run for a couple of days. I timed mine this morning as I hadn't run it since Friday evening. The oil light took just under 3 seconds to go out. If the engine has been run earlier in the day, this delay drops to just over 1 second.
The comparison with older engine designs isn't relevant to the TDV6. While you are correct in thinking that the oil pressure switch being at the top might delay pressure build up at the switch, that's only the symptom of the problem. There is a delay in oil pressure to the whole engine. This is I believe due to the top mounted filter draining down over a few hours. This means that the filter has to fill with oil, before the oil can reach any other part of the engine. Looking at the oil flow diagram, the crank is almost the last place oil reaches. So by the time the light has gone out, oil might not have reach the crank. This is why I believe these engines fail. Especially if they get lots of stop start driving. Motorway munchers seem to do substantial miles before the onset of failure.
By comparison, my MGF VVC oil light goes out during cranking, as did my V6 Freelander. The pressure build up in the TDV6 is positively sluggish compared to those engines.
I think this, combined with the fact that the engine uses tabless main bearings, is the most complete explanation as to why we're seeing such failures with the TDV6. For all my other vehicles the oil light is gone a split second after the car fires.
There has definitely been some internal modification to the oil pump (as well as the increased webbing around the belt tensioner mount), as my oil light takes half as long to go out now as it did before changing it with the updated pump. It's not a case of wear on the old pump either - I dismantled mine to check (it now sits proudly on a shelf with the cover off the gears) and there is only slight micro polishing around the tips of the gear teeth - other than that, no noticeable wear and all factory machining marks are still very plainly visible after 190,000km.2008 RRS TDV6 - Chawton White/Black/Lined Oak - 20's, h/k, sunroof - 350K KM.
2010 Audi A6 3.0T S-Line - Phamtom Black/exclusive 2-tone valcona 184K
2000 Audi A4 avant 1.8t Q Sport - Phantom Black/black 385K KM
1990 Nissan Pintara TRX - red - lots of mods - 439K KM
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for this your wallet can take a pounding and you worry about being deflated at any time...
