DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Fault code reader experiences?

BrumLee

Member Since: 07 Mar 2008
Location: West Midlands
Posts: 1360

2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto Bonatti Grey

Dont_tell_him_Pike wrote:
Using the cheap reader, you will only ever pull the codes that the manufacturers allow you by law.

All vehicles are supposed to be 100% OBDII compliant after certain dates by law. I can't understand why Land Rover get away with having a different protocol that means you have to spend a fortune to read or clear codes

8th Mar 2009 11:45 pm

Roel

Member Since: 16 Aug 2008
Location: home
Posts: 1215

2005 Discovery 3 4.4 V8 HSE Auto Tangiers Orange

Thanks guys,

I was asking who was using what and how the experiences are. The standard OBD2 should read all the required by law standard fault codes and that is only engine and gearbox I believe. Not even safety items like ABS airbags etc.
I don't have experience with any off them yet. My Camel hardly had any electronics and never saw a computer connected to it. But I am afraid my D3 might need a computer sometimes even if it doesn't help.

(rear tailgate computer says it's OK but it doesn't open and all parts are replaced)

I think for me a OBD2 system I find not enough for a D3 but still would love to see experiences from other people what they use and what they like.
If somebody answers I bought brand A it reads the faulcodes but there is no explanation what it means, it is clearly not a helpfull system.
But I think London Lad was clear: He likes his system and clearly remarks that in only reads engine and gearbox faults. Thanks.

I would love to buy the full Faultmate kit and try to justify it for myselves. The question is always how much do you save by having your own faultcode reader. If you can find a fault and you can repair it yourselves then you earned some money back, but if you find a fault and you still have to go to a dealer who will connect their own system again and then repair the fault, you didn't save money.
I did all the maintenance on my Camel myselves for about 130.000 km so I think I have basic mechanical skills. So being able to replace parts on my D3 too. But hopefully It only needs normal maintenance and then a full Faultmate system might not or just paying itselves back.

On the other side I probably like to play with it and that's nice too.

I'll wait till after my first service and see what the Dealer charges me for the service and what he quotes for some software changes I would like.

The other problem is off-course what software updates will I miss out on.

But please keep reacting as I think this could be a discussion that is off interest for more people. Roel

1997 Camel Trophy Disco ex-P101JWK (traded it for a Britains 42101)
1984 90 TD5
2005 G4 Disco 3 BN55WPT

Also member of club MTR
and Club Faultmate

Interested in my 4x4 history see my website: www.mudmachine.webklik.nl
Sorry it's in Dutch and with google translator it gets funny.

9th Mar 2009 12:50 am

Dont_tell_him_Pike

Member Since: 08 Mar 2009
Location: Hove
Posts: 36

Hi Roel,

In this economic climate it's a great discussion, & it needs to be said about these waste of money odb readers that pop up on ebay.

Now i'm not some idiot that is just sprouting my views, I have Land rover diagnostic technicians (mobile) operating around the world. We have a first class reputation. We also get recommended by some main dealers after they put there hands up & admit they cant help.

I think they realise now that they cant just plug you in & replace everthing their Testbook system tells them resulting in expensive components being replaced when not needed.
The statistics worked out that a high percentage of owners were spending the same amount on running costs & repairs than the original purchase price.

Even trying to attempt a repair yourself is restricted by the electronics on these vehicles.

The law that made the manufacturers codes available to be read by any generic reader was a feeble attempt & very limited.

The systems used on the modern Land rover are very complex systems & all interlinked, Hence, just reading engine & transmission codes is pretty much useless.

I think i might of upset London Lad with my summary of that reader he has, & for reference i have the T4, autologic, Ids, Decscan & rovacom although my autologic's screen is cracked & is used more as a tea tray than diagnostics & i refuse to pay for updates when everything i have i get updated for free. I do have another main dealer tech coming over to work for us & the autologic is great to teach them, so i should get it repaired.

The T4, autologic or IDS are expensive, again as London Lad mentioned earlier, & that's no good if you only want to look after your own vehicle.

Looking at blackbox's website, they do a MSV2 for a single vehicle application that's probably better for you. it covers the whole vehicle. A few of our past customers bought these, Not sure how they got on with them as i never heard from them again, & they were always stressing us with there urgency.

Our company also rebuilds & repair ECU's & distribute worldwide & i know the P38 guy's swear by their systems they bought because they call us to talk them through the programming & resyncing process if we supply them a particular ecu or module.

My own experiance out of all the system's, they're all good, all have there own good & bad points, but when i get the real problems it's the blackbox stuff that get's me to the depths needed everytime, it has help pages that near on talk you through a procedure in case you're not the best mechanic, & the best thing i like is the updates are free, & that needs to be taken into account.

Best thing to do is go to there websites, badger them with questions, but never part with any money until you're happy with & understand what you're getting, & most importantly back up, without the long phone calls.

Hope this hopes.

9th Mar 2009 3:12 am

Roel

Member Since: 16 Aug 2008
Location: home
Posts: 1215

Like I set I really like the Faultmate, and personally I would like the complete system were you also can change settings, not just read and clear fault codes.
I am currently not ready to buy it yet, althoug I think I might buy one in the near future.
There is another thread about adjustable suspension rods, I was thinking of buying them but them I thought why spend 2oo euro on that if BBS can do that soon and then I rather use that 200 mentally to justify the faultmate.

In an earlier discussion with Colin I said I wouldn't mind paying 200-300 euro for a system that could read and clear faultcodes, so ad these 200 euro and I have mentally reserved about 500 euros already.
The complete system is still a little more expensive so I have to find other things to justify it for myselves. Roel

1997 Camel Trophy Disco ex-P101JWK (traded it for a Britains 42101)
1984 90 TD5
2005 G4 Disco 3 BN55WPT

Also member of club MTR
and Club Faultmate

Interested in my 4x4 history see my website: www.mudmachine.webklik.nl
Sorry it's in Dutch and with google translator it gets funny.

9th Mar 2009 5:09 am

BBS SPY
Site Sponsor

Member Since: 15 Jun 2007
Location: Sunny Cyprus
Posts: 3054

2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 Base 7 Seat Auto Bonatti Grey

multi person response

Hiya guys,
Genis
Nowadays, all of a vehicles complex on board electronics constantly monitors itself and its sensors looking for anything that might indicate a problem or failure. If an on board system detects a problem of fault, it stores a fault code in its memory and sometimes (but not always) puts a fault lamp on, enters limp mode or disables a system. A fault code reader can read these codes from the memory of the on board systems and translate these codes into plain text to aid anyone trying to fix a car.

As to how much used having a reader in the bush would be depends on the severity of the fault, in many cases it can be just a glitch in the system easily cured by clearing the on board systems memory. like a systems reset or reboot.
But suppose you get a fault that says the fuel pressure is low, if this is because you sprang a leak, from a joint, then you would likely be able to fix it in the bush, if however the fuel pumps packing in, then you might not.
Sorry if that sounded over simplified, from your question i was not sure what level of appreciation or understanding you already had and it was sensible to explain from the beginning rather than assume.

Brumlee.
The OBDII legislation only forces manufacturers to ensure their vehicles provide information related to anything that can effect the vehicle emissions. In this Land Rover comply 100% This means that the engine management and Auto gearbox ECU's must report certain problems EG lambda sensor failure, water coolant temp and so any OBDII scan tool with the relevant protocol, should be able to access these codes and this type of information.

However, manufacturers are free to do whatever they wish in respect of other problems and data in these ECU's and indeed any fault code read from the EMS over 1000 is manufacturer specific rather than OBDII defined. And of course OBDII covers only 2 systems on a vehicle that may well have 25.

Making an OBDII compliant fault code reader is relatively easy, because you just follow the simple instructions in the book. and so there are a lot of them and they are cheap, but they don't give you much. However making something that can access all on board systems and read / interpret all fault codes from all systems on a particular model and so on, is relatively difficult, requiring a lot more effort (working at it BrewMonkey

) and typically any company willing to do this, will be asking several thousand pounds for their equipment, but then thats the true cost of professional class equipment, and sure enough if you look at the price of all three piexes of equipment that exist (TMK) that will cover all systems on the later CAN bus vehicles all of these cost several thousand pounds, including our own.

However uniquely, in an effort to allow private individuals and enthusiasts the opportunity to have access to this kind of equipment at more affordable prices, we introduced our single vehicle concept. This means that in exchange for providing a system that can only be used on specific (By Vin Vehicles), we are willing to supply our system for just around 700 pounds and if all you want to do is read and clear the faults, we will do that for 400.

At that sort of money, it makes it sound and seem like a trumped up OBDII scan tool / fault reader, and i can understand that association and confusion, But in reality it is actually a very inexpensive vehicle manufacturer dedicated diagnostic system with all systems access.

Sadly all to often we get customers who have mistakenly purchased OBDII scan tools thinking they were getting the proper job, and ultimately ended up spending more than our system cost before figuring out we actually did what they need / want all along. But sometimes its hard to have your voice heard above all the others.

Pike.
Nice to see you, and thanks for your input. BTW If you need some parts, i have quite a few of those that were traded in, and i would be happy to let you have for bits.

+Roel
Have no fear, as Pike states, i would never have anyone buy anything unless they were completely happy.
And then as you have yourself seen right here, if anyone is really not happy after the event, then are most welcome to have their money back.

9th Mar 2009 9:25 am

London Lad

Member Since: 27 May 2008
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 505

2008 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Stornoway Grey

@ Roel,

You are welcome. I should add that of course I would love a unit that would read all the codes from all the modules and I would probably go to about Â£1k for such a unit but not one that only worked on one car or model, as we have a number of cars in the family and I change my cars quite a lot. To me that would be like buying a spanner that only worked on one specific nut

but I do understand why vendors offer such units.

You asked about how useful a code reader is:

In 1982 I set up an auto electronics businesses. I had noticed that more and more electronic control units were being used in cars and that most independent mechanics had little or no understanding of these units. Main dealers did not repair units but just replaced then at high cost to the owner.

We specialized in ABS, gearbox and injection control units. We dissected units and spent hundreds of hours doing initial fault finding but eventually we found that many faults repeated themselves in unit after unit and from then on things got much easier and of course more profitable. To give you an example a Renault auto box control unit cost Â£400 from Renault. The component that failed in that unit (disabling 2 gears) cost us 50p and we could remove the unit, repair it and fix the design fault that caused it to fail in the first place and refit it in under an hour!

In those days there were no code readers and no info available from manufactures, an independent was on his own.

OK control units were simpler than today's units and they were not interlinked but they were still daunting for your average mechanic to deal with.

My point is that code readers are only and aid to diagnostics. Experience is the most valuable tool in the box.

You will notice that 10forcash has quite a high hit rate at diagnosing peoples problems on this forum without even seeing the car let alone plunging his diagnostic kit in to it. This is because he specializes in LR and has worked on hundreds of cars and built up his own 'symptom / cause' database.

This is where a forum like this one is worth its weight in gold with lots of owners sharing their cars symptoms and eventual remedy.

So personally, I would rate access to this forum as being more valuable than a simple code reader to the average owner.

@ BBS SPY

What a sensible post

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You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience !

9th Mar 2009 10:41 am

BBS SPY
Site Sponsor

Member Since: 15 Jun 2007
Location: Sunny Cyprus
Posts: 3054

Spot on London Lad

There is and never will be any substitute for logical deductive thinking and experience. In some cases the logged fault is a knock on effect of something seemingly un related or the fault code might give you the circuit and the problem but its still down to physically checking and metering to pin point the final problem.

So often people buy our equipment only when something goes wrong which is definitely not the best time to be learning about what makes your car work or what the data values it presents should look like. Our software specifically allows to save pages of data and settings which is a vital aid to spotting what is wrong when the vehicle is not as it should be.

You are not alone in your Multi LR need there, and again due only to the benefit of having and using forums, we got to appreciate that. So our made our latest hardware so it can actually support licensing of up to 3 vehicles in Single vehicle mode and on changing a car, we charge only a nominal re license fe to allow you to move the license to a new one. the software license for additional Single Vehicle cars is therefore available separately. EG MP012 (Full capability for Disco 3) is GBP 484 and MP030 (FCO Read & Clear Fault Codes Only) is GBP 190.

9th Mar 2009 11:41 am

Dont_tell_him_Pike

Member Since: 08 Mar 2009
Location: Hove
Posts: 36

London Lad,

Renault gearbox's, I know where you are coming from.

Have you worked on the latest DPO boxes, bloody nightmare. I have one sitting outside the workshop waiting for our attention as i sit here. There's not many things i shy away from but those damned things. Half of them are sealed up now.

I can also understand Ten for Cash's predicament.

I spend a good part of my day with people calling regarding problems, & as you say, when you've been working with a particular vehicle for so long you get to know everything about them.

It does become second nature to remedy the fault over the phone, especially when you've had the same symtoms from the same fault many times in the past. I often thought about setting up a premium rate phone line, I'd make a killing & wouldn't have to get my hands dirty ever again. If fact, i've just answered three calls why i'm writing this.

9th Mar 2009 11:42 am

London Lad

Member Since: 27 May 2008
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 505

@ Pike,

I haven't worked on anything car related recently, just played around for fun!

I sold the auto electronics company in 1987 and moved into a different area of electronics, mobile phone repair. Sold part of that company in 2004 and the rest in 2008.

I'm trying being retired at the moment and just sit round polishing my tool..........s

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You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience !

9th Mar 2009 11:52 am

Roel

Member Since: 16 Aug 2008
Location: home
Posts: 1215

BBS Spy,

As this thread goes a little off Topic I have some questions what your system coveres on the moment. Just
Maybe you should open your own thread about this.

I understand the differens between Nano and Extreme. Very simple said: The Nano makes it possible to let a PC comunnicate with the Car. The Extreme does the same but with the LCD screen you can read and clear faults on the Extreme itselves too.

Software packages:
With the basic package (sv322 and sv422) you can read and clear faults from all ECU systems in the D3.
Will the basic package reset the service indicator?
Are there other settings that you can change with the basic package?

With the total Package (sv122 and sv222) you can change the CCF file.

I understand that this part is not fully developed yet and you still adding features to it. Like the height setting etc.
You can change the setting that I can change via the information display and probably some other but which ones? I can't find any information about this on the website.
I read that satnav on the mov is one off them.
Can you somewhere publish a list off what setting you can change?

I also understand that you can read and write software to the different ECU's and that you download other versions off the software and write it to a D3, but was is the benefit of this for me? Or any other D3 driver off-course.
Does somebody download the software from his car after a factory update and publish it?

It is a pity that your forum is for customers only. It would be nice to be able to read the experiences from other users off the faultmate. I understand that you don't want everybody to be able to post in it and that, like here, most people only post if they have a problem.

Thanks, Roel

1997 Camel Trophy Disco ex-P101JWK (traded it for a Britains 42101)
1984 90 TD5
2005 G4 Disco 3 BN55WPT

Also member of club MTR
and Club Faultmate

Interested in my 4x4 history see my website: www.mudmachine.webklik.nl
Sorry it's in Dutch and with google translator it gets funny.

9th Mar 2009 9:54 pm

Dont_tell_him_Pike

Member Since: 08 Mar 2009
Location: Hove
Posts: 36

Roel,

All my guys are members there as we all have a blackbox systems.

It's a good site, but very slow. There's no banter or such.

It's full of information, tips & tricks, & although i think it was meant to be if you have problems with the diagnostics & stuff, but everyone posts & replies to engine ecu problems & mechanical issues.
It's good if you get a problem with your system or whatever as every member can reply & help you out.

You've got garage owners & private owners all mixing together. Very educational. Very few complaints abote the merchandise, as they sort out the gripes very quickly.

I like the banter & to peruse wider issues to spend any time in there. But i've noticed a few other guys in this forum that are members there also. So it's only really used if you're looking for an answer.

9th Mar 2009 11:00 pm

DG
Site Moderator

Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50956

Just trying to expel some of the hot air and get to some substance

...do these unit's read 5 or 7 bit DTC's ?? 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021

9th Mar 2009 11:30 pm

Roel

Member Since: 16 Aug 2008
Location: home
Posts: 1215

What's the difference? I know that 5 bits is a shorter number than 7 bits but is it not a case that it reads the fault or not? Roel

1997 Camel Trophy Disco ex-P101JWK (traded it for a Britains 42101)
1984 90 TD5
2005 G4 Disco 3 BN55WPT

Also member of club MTR
and Club Faultmate

Interested in my 4x4 history see my website: www.mudmachine.webklik.nl
Sorry it's in Dutch and with google translator it gets funny.