Member Since: 06 Nov 2004
Location: Hook Norton
Posts: 18454
I guess Webasto have decided to prevent its general use 06 D3 SE / 15 LR D90 XS SW / 88 LR 90 Td5 / 68 BMW 2000 ti
Any issues with the site let me know!
16th Feb 2013 3:14 pm
delboy
Member Since: 06 May 2009
Location: barnsley
Posts: 18
bummer just got obd cable too
16th Feb 2013 3:31 pm
delboy
Member Since: 06 May 2009
Location: barnsley
Posts: 18
has anyone got a copy of webasto softeare thay can spare please
16th Feb 2013 3:55 pm
Martin Site Admin and Owner
Member Since: 06 Nov 2004
Location: Hook Norton
Posts: 18454
Wiki updated with new Thermotest software link06 D3 SE / 15 LR D90 XS SW / 88 LR 90 Td5 / 68 BMW 2000 ti
Any issues with the site let me know!
16th Feb 2013 4:32 pm
ballast
Member Since: 13 Apr 2007
Location: South Midlands
Posts: 178
Can Hawkeye clear FBH faults does anyone know please?
Thanks
21st Feb 2013 3:25 pm
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
It can and I have done precisely that for numerous forum members (for free) but it cannot trigger a purge, only clear faults.Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 13 Apr 2007
Location: South Midlands
Posts: 178
Great, thanks
I'll wait for my D3 code to arrive and see if clearing the faults does the trick!
21st Feb 2013 3:41 pm
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
Pete's magic FBHIC remote automatically clears faults and can trigger purges. We all know it for its ability to trigger the FBH for use as a parking heater but its best feature is just keeping the thing active in the summer months and for clearing faults.Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 19 Jul 2007
Location: Riga
Posts: 11
The obvious and simple causes of FBH problems
When all the simple and obvious possible causes of FBH problems are checked/solved (just summary):
-FBH reset by fuse.
-Errors cleared from FBH by Webasto software (FBH pin 2 to OBD cavity number 7 with "OBD socket connector pin/terminal with wire" from Martin's shop and USB/OBD KKL/K-line adapter as described in FBH Wiki works great).
-Errors cleared from D3 log by Faultmate or similar.
-All component tests, including coolant pump, are successful by Webasto software, no specific errors with additional information, just “02 No start†or similar.
-Voltage and fuel level checked.
-Smooth operation of FBH air fan is checked by listening to the sound of air fan (255% for air fan in FBH software equals 100% of real operation power of fan).
-Fuel line checked (no air bubbles in fuel system because of weak/wrong connections).
-Clogging in fuel tank checked (by blowing in fuel line from FBH fuel pump to fuel tank).
-Fuel flow (fuel pump) checked:
- - remove the fuel pipe form FBH,
- - set the fuel pump by Webasto software to work 6 Hz for one minute,
- - collect fuel from pipe,
- - measure the amount of fuel,
- - repeat this 3 times,
- - productivity of fuel pump must be 20 ml in one minute (+/- 2 ml),*
- - discard first measurement, use average of second and third measurement (instruction by Webasto).
... and there are still problems with starting or running the FBH, there is the next level of diagnosis and problem solving.
I’ll try to share and explain some information about this in the next posts.
My story in short: I have D3 TDV6 year 2006. In middle of this winter FBH refused to start. Webasto testing software showed error 02 No start. All simple and obvious possible causes of FBH problems were checked. All “wonders†tried. It was possible to start FBH in full load by blowing air from compressor to air filter/silencer. When in full load no extra air was needed.
Adjusting CO2 does not help to achieve successful start without extra air.
Then I made additional tests to find the explanation and solution. I ordered new FBH burner unit (LR010329 “glow plugâ€) and replaced it by myself. I cleaned my old FBH burner unit including dismantling and cleaning Venturi burner and saved it for later. Now my FBH runs cleanly again. 8)
*- In some parts of my posts about FBH I am using and retelling information (with precise values) posted by mister Savelov (very helpful and with great knowledge in Webasto) I found in other forums.
Last edited by Ilmars on 25th Feb 2013 11:40 pm. Edited 2 times in total
24th Feb 2013 8:44 pm
Ilmars
Member Since: 19 Jul 2007
Location: Riga
Posts: 11
FBH tests Next level
First of all, there is no magic or wonders in FBH. Everything is about perfect fuel/air mix in perfect proportions. If you have problems with starting the FBH or you have a lot of smoke from FBH, or FBH is stopping unexpectedly, most probably FHB has problems to achieve perfect fuel/air mix. There may be several causes for that and there are ways to diagnose and solve these problems. All wonders like redirecting air input to let more air to air filter, blowing compressed air in fuel input of FBH, fuel priming (if used without reason), adding injector cleaner to fuel, adjusting CO2 levels beyond reasonable range etc. may help for some time but it will only prolong the agony of FBH.
FBH consists of (not scientific list):
- Venturi burner+glow plug+burner (whole unit with part number LR010329, named just “glow plug†in most shops)
- Combustion air fan (motor or bearings can be contaminated by sand or dust preventing it from smooth operation or can have poor connection to electronic control board, result is reduced productivity),
- Control unit (theoretically can have poor connections of all kinds, "patina" or other electronic failures)
- Heat exchanger (piece of metal, nothing to go wrong, if FBH still in one piece)
- Sensors
As FBH gets older or bad fuel is used, Venturi burner is not able to make perfect fuel/air mix in right conditions and needs checking (cleaning, repairing or replacing).
For first test, start Webasto software and connect to FBH. Flame detector is very precise instrument and is very useful for diagnosis. Cold flame detector (before starting FBH) must show between 0.2-0.3 Ohm in Webasto software. If it is 0.4 Ohm or higher – flame detector/glow plug is faulty and has to be replaced – it cannot give right measurements.
Low Ohms of flame detector mean low temperature; high Ohms of flame detector mean high temperature in combustion chamber. During start up sequence glow plug (the same thing as flame detector) is heating up to ignite the fuel, therefore flame detector shows high Ohms. Only when glow plug switches off and cools, flame detector starts to show the temperature of the flame and Ohms drop. At the end of starting sequence control unit measures parameters of sensors and if they are not in predefined range FBH “suddenly†goes to the cooling phase, not to the full load phase.
For next test you have to run FBH combustion process in full load.
If you have problems starting FBH in full load (and fuel flow is ok and tested) you can blow compressed air in air filter during all start up sequence.
If you cannot start FBH because of very wrong CO2 settings you can help to start it by blowing the air, or by restricting the fuel flow to FBH. To restrict the fuel flow to FBH you can use very thin copper wire and insert it to fuel input opening (not tried by me). (This is method how Webasto is turning diesel heaters to petrol heaters by reducing the sectional area of fuel input opening). Use wire with longer tail. Do not lose the wire inside.
If you cannot run FBH in full load using all methods and all obvious possible causes of FBH problems are checked/solved burner needs checking (cleaning, repairing or replacing).
If you adjust CO2 from the middle to the right side, at the beginning air fan % will increase. When 100% of air fan is reached, fuel flow reduces (Hz of fuel pump lowers) to continue give “more air/less fuel†mix. If you adjust CO2 from the middle to the left, you will achieve “less air/more fuel†mix. When adjusting CO2, always watch the temperature of coolant. If it reaches 82 degrees C or 88 degrees C, full load mode will end and you will be left with last CO2 settings you entered.
Test in full load. Measurements of flame detector must be taken after 3-5 minutes after running in full load mode.
If in full load mode flame detector shows less than 0.700 Ohm and with CO2 adjustment in reasonable range (air fan from 75% to 95%) you cannot achieve 0.720 Ohm or higher, Venturi burner needs checking (dismantling, cleaning, repairing or replacing). Just cleaning the inside of the burner heat exchanger camera and cleaning the burner unit from outside will not help.
If burner is OK (previously checked, cleaned, repaired or replaced), during normal operation in full load mode air fan must be from 75% to 85% (sometimes to 90%). If normal Ohms of flame detector can be achieved (0.720 Ohm or higher) only with very high air fan % (especially if fuel pump Hz reduced) – air fun possibly is faulty. If normal Ohms can be achieved with very low air fun speed – fuel pump is in doubt.
If results of measurements of flame detector in full load mode are too low it indicates the problem of FBH in general and this means FBH can have problems not only during full load mode, but may have all kind of problems like unable to accomplish start up sequence successfully (sometimes or always), etc. Symptoms have tendency to worsen after time. Do not wonder if you can achieve different symptoms in different modes. If fuel temperature in full load is not enough, it shows the problem with the combustion process and before FBH stops to function completely it will show different symptoms at different stages.
Last edited by Ilmars on 25th Feb 2013 11:46 pm. Edited 1 time in total
24th Feb 2013 8:50 pm
Ilmars
Member Since: 19 Jul 2007
Location: Riga
Posts: 11
Removing FBH
There are several options to solve FBH problems you can choose from:
-Replace whole FBH:
- to new one (expensive and most replaced parts were still in good working condition),
- to used one (if another unit is removed from the car of the same age it may have the same problems with less symptoms and the same good parts)
- to refurbished FBH (depends on price, quality and warranty)
- Go to car service station to repair FBH unit (sometimes it is hard to find good service with deep knowledge both in Webasto and LandRover; usually they are pointing to each other without starting to solve the problem)
- Order new FBH burner unit (LR010329 “glow plugâ€) and replace it by yourself
- Clean your old FBH burner unit including dismantling Venturi burner.
- Ask and get help from forum.
To replace new burner unit (LR010329 “glow plugâ€) or clean your old one it is necessary to remove FBH from car. Time planning in advance is advised. If it is possible to remove FBH, replace or repair burner, put FBH back to car in short time, you can leave the car without FBH unit with clamps on coolant input and output hoses. You cannot start the engine or use the car during this time.
If you plan to use the car during the repair of FBH you can make recirculation hose to connect coolant input and output hoses, block fuel pipe, remove FBH fuse and seal electric connectors. Then you can use your car during the repair of your FBH. Recirculation hose is flexible “rubber†U shape hose (with approximately the same diameter and approximately the same characteristics as original hoses), hose connectors and metal ties at both ends of hose.
Recirculation hose:
Click image to enlarge
When opening FBH you may detect that Venture burner has non repairable defect and needs to be replaced. Therefore, for me, the best option was to order new FBH burner unit (LR010329 “glow plugâ€) and replace it. And then check and clean old FBH burner, and save it for later. This option was way cheaper comparing to going to service station for repairing (cleaning) the old unit. After spending money in service I would be left with cleaned old burner unit with signs of aging. Now I have new unit in FBH and cleaned old one for later (hopefully after another seven years). Of course, cleaned unit will not serve as long as new one. You have to take this in mind when service is asking price for cleaning.
To remove FBH wait until the engine is cool (avoid hot coolant under pressure), then you need to remove:
- electric connectors
- air filter (silencer) form FBH for easier access
- 4 bolts holding FBH brackets to car (2 left bracket, 2 right bracket),
- one bolt holding exhaust silencer pipe behind the front wheel,
- fuel pipe
- 2 coolant pipes (ones goes from car to FBH, another goes from car to coolant pump of FBH) No need to remove pipe connecting FBH to coolant pump at this stage.
Bolt holding exhaust silencer pipe behind the front wheel:
Before starting the procedure of removing FBH you need to close coolant pipes. These plastic tools are useful: two hose pinch off pliers.
Hose pinch off pliers
I made mine “hose pinch off pliers†form long Lego bars, cable ties at each end, and small C-clamps.
The main challenge (but not very hard if you have tools) is to remove and reattach coolant pipes, because there is not a lot of space. You will not regret using (or buying if you do not have it) this tool: flexible hose clamp plier.
Flexible hose clamp plier:
It will help a lot to open and close hose clamps in tight space and it will be much easier to move pipes back on FBH. This tool will be useful on other parts of the car as this type of clamps is popular in D3. There are expensive and cheap flexible hose clamp pliers. Buy cheap one if you are not a professional, they work fine for few times they are needed.
My advice is to remove front headlamp near FBH before removing it. You will have much more access space.
Detach brake fluid, coolant and wind screen fluid containers from each other to move freely. This will give you a little bit more space when necessary.
If you are unable to remove the FBH because it is hard to move exhaust silencer pipe through the hole in engine bay (exhaust silencer pipe has a nasty ring with the bolt behind the hole in engine bay), you can remove left bracket with exhaust silencer and exhaust pipe from FBH (3 bolts are holding bracket to FBH, one bolt is holding exhaust pipe ring to FBH), and remove them separately.
3 bolts are holding bracket to FBH, one bolt is holding exhaust pipe ring to FBH:
It is easier to remove and put back FBH as it sounds.
Last edited by Ilmars on 25th Feb 2013 11:54 pm. Edited 1 time in total
24th Feb 2013 9:03 pm
Ilmars
Member Since: 19 Jul 2007
Location: Riga
Posts: 11
Burner checking (cleaning, repairing or replacing)
There is very useful video in YouTube about Webasto Thermo Top V burner cleaning and repairing.
Unfortunately this video is in Russian, but the video picture shows main steps by itself. Story about opening FBH starts at 0:04:00. If you are interested in specific part of video, I can try to translate. (Nor English, nor Russian is my native language).
Before starting to unscrew coolant hose connectors, mark the position of them.
After opening FBH, removing burner and dismantling it, you have to inspect it. If white ceramic part of Venturi burner is cracked, you have to replace it.
You have to be careful and:
- Clean the inside of white ceramic part of Venturi burner. It is important.
- Clean as good as you can the combustion chamber with heat exchanging ribs. Leaving it dirty means that the new burner or cleaned burner will be dirty again soon.
- Clean small injector pipe with Carburettor cleaner. Small injector pipe is very brittle, do not bend it.
- Clean fuel pipe and injector from inside with Carburettor cleaner. (In video diesel burner with solenoid valve is cleaned as Solenoid valve may be stuck. D3 do not have it. Spray Carburettor cleaner in fuel pipe somehow to force it through injector. Do not spray it in your eyes)
- Clean glow plug/flame detector with fingernail.
Edit: - Pay close attention to the “cup†inside metallic part of the Venturi burner. You can see it in the video, starting from 0:15:17. Clean it and clean everything else you can reach (use air compressor if needed). “Cup†cracks, deforms, changes position, burns through, or even separates during incorrect burning process. If this is the case, new Venturi burner unit is the best reasonable solution.
If some parts are not holding together, the best thing is to replace the burner unit. If you are trying to screw something together (better not), remember you cannot use ordinary bolts. The temperature in the burner is very high, ordinary bolt will melt.
Do not put plain 12V anywhere to test something. You will damage the part immediately.
If you decided to replace the burner and ordered new burner unit (LR010329 “glow plugâ€) as I did, you may notice that new unit is different a little bit. It will have diesel burner with fuel preheating and different openings (even direction of slopes in openings is different).
If this is the case, do not worry - it fits and works with the same old Control unit.
You have to remove connector without any wires from your old FBH control unit and plug in connector from fuel preheating unit. Most likely it will not add fuel preheating option, but it will work anyway.
After cleaning or replacing fuel burning unit, put everything together and back to the car. You can pour a little bit of coolant in FBH before connecting it back to pipes, just to minimize the formation of air bubbles.
Test it with Webasto software and enjoy. 8)
Disclaimer, as you may presume:
this post is for INFORMATION only. Neither DISCO3.CO.UK, Martin Lewis nor the author are liable for any damage caused by application or otherwise of the information contained in this post and 3 posts above. This is not intended an encouragement to carry out any procedure which might have warranty implications. No liability will be accepted by any of the aforementioned parties for any damage caused by carrying out this procedure whether as described or otherwise.
Fuel burning heater is dangerous device! Do not do anything with it if you are not sure!
Defective fuel burning heater serviced by unauthorised personnel may burn your car, kill you and everybody around you!
Last edited by Ilmars on 27th Feb 2013 9:24 pm. Edited 1 time in total
24th Feb 2013 9:11 pm
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
Excellent posts!
Took me several years of fiddling to get close to that knowledge. It would make a fine contribution to the wiki with suitable editing.
I found the cheap mini clamps (pictured below) to be great on the FBH hoses and a golf tee was a good fuel line stopper. I bought a U-bend for the coolant pipe and 2 barbed plastic connectors so I could just push them on. I also bled the coolant afterwards but it didn't have that much air in the system.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 13 Apr 2007
Location: South Midlands
Posts: 178
Tremedous post this. Many thanks to IanNP for all the info. I had exactly the same issues as outlined so many times here. Connected it up to the Webasto software, cleared it out, ran it for a bit and it's not missed a beat. If anyone needs assistance with the FBH and lives near by (NW Leics), I'm happy to assist if I possibly can (with the correct connection, etc). The FBH clearly had not run for some considerable time and filled the enitre garage with thick fog!!
It does make a huge difference to warm up times and I'm tempted to add the timer now.
Thanks to all!
27th Feb 2013 12:22 pm
maplecottage
Member Since: 01 Feb 2011
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 3171
Smokin' !!
Having had several false starts / shortruns with my FBH I finally got round to connecting up to the Webasto software to take a look at what's going on. Having done the simple loom bit (12v + and - and connection to pin 7), installed the software and the VAG drivers, I cleared the faults, initiated the Parking Heater mode and away it went.
Bingo A shed load of white smoke for a few minutes and it ran for about 20 mins before the STFL code pop's up and 'Circulation pump short circuit' fault appears. I have seen this before via my MSV-2 but was never convinced considering it had been working previously - surely a short circuit would be there permenantly and not intermittent ?? Anyway, let it cool down for 5 mins (coolant temp now 44C) and fired it up again - this time it ran with no smoke for at least 30 mins, coolant temp went up to 77C and no circ pump fault; I then shut it down manually.
I'll have another go tonight to see if all remains OK but at this time, it's looking good. Fingers crossed for the short-circuit issue, I hope it's a 'false positive'.
If anyone needs a copy of the diag softeware, I have v2.11 available and it's only about 2Mb.
Steve
Edit:
Back to square one - no go tonight, still showing fault with circulation pump but that itself seems OK so suspect it may be the ECU. Does anyone know the correct ohm figure for the pump ??
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