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character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
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LAW REGARDS D3/D4 TOWING AS OF 4TH DEC 2011 -UPDATE 29/05/12 |
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For years now a "small goods vehicle" as defined by the Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) Act 1995 has looked kindly upon such vehicles which might otherwise tow a trailer for "hire or reward" in giving an exemption from the need to hold an Operators Licence (or O Licence) as the towing vehicle was less than 3500kg so long as the trailers unladen weight is less than 1020kg.
However legislation coming in as of 4th Dec 2011 (EC Regulation 1071/2009) will abolish this exemption leading to the need for LR Disco 3 & 4 COMMERCIAL OR PASSENGER VEHICLE along with any other 3500kg or below vehicle that might be towing a trailer in any "hire or reward " or your own equipment will soon need an O Licence
I have emailed the relevant person at Department for Transport in order to clarify the point in respect of Disco 3 & 4 which are have a RFL of "passenger vehicle" / were factory built as a purpose built passenger vehicle, but just to say here is an extract from "Response to public consultation on implementing EC Regulation 1071/2009 rules concerning the occupation of road transport operators" with a link to the document itself
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/consultations/dft...sponse.pdf
http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/dft-2011-11
PAGE 48
" Abolition of the small trailer exemption
Paragraph 3 of Schedule 1 of the Goods Vehicle (Licensing of Operators) Act 1995 exempts from operator licensing a ‘small goods vehicle’ forming part of a vehicle combination (not being an articulated combination) where all the vehicles comprising the combination excluding any ‘small trailer’ have a plated weight not exceeding 3.5 tonnes.
A small trailer is defined under the Act as a trailer with an unladen weight not exceeding 1020kg. This trailer does not need to be included when calculating the 3.5 tonne limit.
However, under the Regulation all the vehicle combination (including any trailer) operating for hire or reward must be included when calculating the weight limit, so the small trailer exemption will be abolished for hire or reward operations from 4 December 2011. However, the small trailer exemption under paragraph 3 of schedule 1 of the Goods Vehicle (Licensing of Operators) Act 1995 will remain in place for operators carrying goods other than for hire or reward."
Ere's the actual EU definitions and its exclusions , PAGE 54, subtitle 4, paragraph (4)
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUri...071:EN:PDF
This post has been edited by the site administration team
thread title clarified
Last edited by character on 29th May 2012 11:18 pm. Edited 12 times in total
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7th Oct 2011 12:20 am |
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character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
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update for yer, got my transport consultant to email the head man who's responsible for the implementation but have asked my man to re-ask the question regards using a D3/4 car as oppose to a "commercial" version:
"Mr Blackmore,
Having read the above regulation proposal/response I note that the small
trailer exemption from Op Licence would appear to be disappearing. As I currently
use this very type of vehicle combination and claim this exemption, can you
confirm that I will now need to apply for an operator licence. The vehicle
combination is used for hire & reward.
I appreciate that you are busy and this may seem a trivial matter, but it is
obviously of the utmost importance to me. I have no problem with obtaining a
licence, but only if I have to.
Thanking you in anticipation.
Chris Woodhouse"
"Chris,
Not trivial at all!
Yes, you will need to apply for an operator’s licence if you are
operating for hire and reward. I did try to retain this exemption during the EU
negotiations, but we were the only member state that made use of it, so I had
no support. Apologies.
Regards
Steve Blackmore
Operator Licensing and Roadworthiness Division
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7th Oct 2011 11:14 am |
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frenchy
Member Since: 05 Dec 2007
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 1037
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good old EU......bless 'em
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7th Oct 2011 12:51 pm |
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character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
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I said on my earlier post the view that these changes would effect principally D3/D4 COMMERCIALS and that I would seek clarification as to whether it applied to normal passenger vehicles towing a trailer.
Well straight off the press, here is the definitive answer:
"
Dear Mr Blackmore
Re: EC Regulation 1071/2009 rules concerning the occupation of road transport operator and the implementation thereof
I am a "micro" business offering a vehicle collection and delivery service to main garage dealerships and auction houses.
I use a Land Rover Discovery 3 passenger vehicle (less than 3500kg kerb weight) towing a Brian James tri-axle single car transporter weighing less than 1020kg unladened weight (gross is 3500kg) which allows me to transport one vehicle at a time for hire and reward.
I am governed by The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005 and EU Tachograph Legislation on an every day basis and in order that I can demonstrate my adherence to this, I employ on a consultancy basis an independent Transport Consultant to analyse my tachograph charts etc.
I see from Page 47 "Response to public consultation on implementing EC Regulation 1071/2009 rules concerning the occupation of road transport operator" that the small trailer exemption is to be abolished.
The questions I would like some clarity on as follows:
1) Is there an exemption from the need for an Operators Licence for a NON "small goods vehicle" (ie traditional 4X4) towing a trailer where that vehicle is registered/RFL as a passenger vehicle?
2) Given that my towing combination is less than 7500kg (in fact 6800kg maximum), would I need an O Licence at all?
I would appreciate some clarity in order that I can establish where the changes might apply to those Micro/SME like me using a typical 4X4 and trailer combination.
Yours in anticipation
Matthew C P James
"Mr J ames
Existing law currently exempts from operator licensing a ‘small goods vehicle’ forming part of a vehicle combination (not being an articulated combination) where all the vehicles comprising the combination excluding any ‘small trailer’ have a plated weight not exceeding 3.5 tonnes.
A small trailer is defined as a trailer with an unladen weight not exceeding 1020kg. At present, this trailer does not need to be included when calculating the 3.5 tonne limit.
However, under new EU law that will take effect from 4 December this year, this small trailer exemption will be abolished. All vehicle combinations operating for hire or reward must be included when calculating the limit.
Anyone operating a car transportation business for hire or reward using any combination of vehicle and trailer that together are over 3.5 tonnes, an operators licence will be required from 4 December this year.
Steve Blackmore
Operator Licensing and Roadworthiness Division "
SO THERE YER HAVE IT........... O-LICENCE FOR US ALL INVOLVED IN THE TRANSPORTATION OF ANYTHING RELATED TO HIRE OR REWARD whether that be me transporting cars or you delivering plant machinery or customer's goods
What a very sad day for us all and god bless the EU
Last edited by character on 7th Oct 2011 2:30 pm. Edited 1 time in total
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7th Oct 2011 1:03 pm |
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Duncan
Member Since: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Olney
Posts: 30
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So just to be clear, if you use a D4 car version with a car transporter trailer, shuttle or the like, and move cars for hire and reward, you have to apply for an Operators Licence?
Apologies, posts crossed !!
What a bunch of tw4ts, as if we havent got enough to do these days keeping up with paperwork, and trying to earn a crust, these slack jawed faggots come up with this ! When I die I want it to be in my sleep, like my Grandad ............ not screaming and shouting like his passengers!!
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7th Oct 2011 1:18 pm |
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character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
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Yes and Yes
Look on the bright side, D3/D4 Commercials will become very cheap and unwanted as everyone thinks, "well if I've got to have an O-Licence then I might as well get a vehicle that earns me more money!!" and matey boy with his £1000 ford transit that's 20 years old with its homemade bed towing a knackered trailer with no lights will be impounded at the roadside
Dont forget, this applies to ANYONE involved in "hire or reward", not just you and me transporting cars, but guys out there moving plant, empty boxes infact anything that might be on a trailer going to or from a customer where there is a commercial activity involved or the trailer is attached (even if empty)
More than that, if its you're own kit being towed ie you do soil testing or anyother form of business activity where you may use a trailer behind yer 3500kg 4x4 or van, you'll need a "RESTRICTED O LICENCE"
This is a fundemental change that will effect all business' with the fine for not having an O-Licence at present being £5000
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7th Oct 2011 1:59 pm |
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Duncan
Member Since: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Olney
Posts: 30
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character wrote:Yes and Yes
Look on the bright side, D3/D4 Commercials will become very cheap and unwanted as everyone thinks, "well if I've got to have an O-Licence then I might as well get a vehicle that earns me more money!!" and matey boy with his £1000 ford transit that's 20 years old with its homemade bed will be impounded at the roadside
Dont forget, this applies to ANYONE involved in "hire or reward", not just you and me transporting cars, but guys out there moving plant, empty boxes infact anything that might be on a trailer going to or from a customer.
More than that, if its you're own kit being towed ie you do soil testing or anyother form of business activity where you may use a trailer behind yer 3500kg 4x4 or van, you'll need a "RESTRICTED O LICENCE"
This is a fundemental change that will effect all business' with the fine for not having an O-Licence at present being £5000 I bet there is a get out for Farmers !!! Pigs will have to fly, as they will be too heavy to move in trailers !! lol
Seriously though, they indirectly move eqpt. for hire and reward, but I bet they get some let off.
One way round it is to collect the clients car, and buy it off him for a quid ! ... if stopped say its yours, then sell it back again once delivered !!! .... just kiddin of course in case someone thinks im serious ! When I die I want it to be in my sleep, like my Grandad ............ not screaming and shouting like his passengers!!
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7th Oct 2011 2:13 pm |
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ZacSmith
Member Since: 26 Aug 2010
Location: Dover
Posts: 709
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Letter from David Cameron:
Quote:In our Foreword to the Coalition Programme for Government, the Deputy Prime Minister and I wrote that “there has been an assumption that central government can only change people’s behaviour through rules and regulations. Our government will be a much smarter one, shunning the bureaucratic levers of the past and finding intelligent ways to encourage, support and enable people to make better choices for themselves.â€
We need to tackle regulation with vigour both to free businesses to compete and create jobs, and give people greater freedom and personal responsibility. Of course we need proper standards, for example in areas like fire safety and food safety. So where regulation is well-designed and proportionate, it should stay. But it is hard to believe that we need government regulations on issues such as ice cream van musical jingles, or the display of bed prices. We know we have inherited far too much costly, pointless, and illiberal government red tape.
That’s why, since coming to office, the Government has pursued an ambitious deregulation agenda. This has included:
•introducing a new one-in, one-out rule, meaning Ministers have to identify an existing piece of regulation to be scrapped for every new one proposed;
•a strengthened role for the Regulatory Policy Committee to review the costs and benefits of new regulation proposals,
•and a three-year moratorium on domestic regulation for very small firms and start-ups.
These things are about stopping unnecessary new regulations. But we also need to tackle the stock of existing regulation. Today, there are over 21,000 statutory rules and regulations in force, and I want us to bring that number – and the burden it represents – down. Indeed, I want us to be the first government in modern history to leave office having reduced the overall burden of regulation, rather than increasing it.
This is a bold ambition – and I am convinced we will only meet it if we try a new approach. Starting today we will publish, sector by sector, all existing regulations online at www.redtapechallenge.cabinetoffice.gov.uk. We will invite members of the public and interested parties to tell us which regulations:
•should simply be scrapped;
•have the right aim, but one which could be achieved without regulation;
•could be made simpler, better designed, or consolidated with other regulations
•could be implemented in a less burdensome way, or
•are well-designed, good ones that should be kept.
In the past, when governments tried to deregulate, Ministers were asked to make the case for abolition. In other words, the assumption was that regulations should stay, unless there was a good case for getting rid of them. We are changing that presumption; we are changing the default setting.
Our starting point is that a regulation should go or its aim achieved in a different, non-government way, unless there is a clear and good justification for government being involved. And even where there is a good case for this, we must sweep away unnecessary bureaucracy and complexity, end gold-plating of EU directives, and challenge overzealous administration and enforcement.
This marks a change from the old ways of doing things – and its success will depend on you and your department being fully behind this approach. So this is not a polite request to “reduce regulation if you can,†it is a change in approach that means Ministerial teams should see themselves personally accountable for the number of regulations contained within and coming out of departments, and the burden they impose. Be in no doubt: all those unnecessary rules that place ridiculous burdens on our businesses and on society – they must go, once and for all.
I look forward to welcoming rapid progress on this agenda in the months ahead. Make no mistake: this is essential work. It will help us build a more dynamic economy, and it will help to build a stronger society. Above all, it will help rebuild in our country the sense of responsibility that is so vital – and which has been so undermined by years of over-regulation.
I am copying this letter to all Government Ministers and Sir Gus O’Donnell is writing personally to all his Permanent Secretary counterparts, committing the civil service to make tackling unnecessary regulation a key priority for the whole of government. VIN: A175A328***
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7th Oct 2011 2:15 pm |
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character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
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remember the law has always been "hire OR reward" not as often people think "hire AND reward" so this does relate to a whole host of business situations
If only to add insult to injury, just awaiting confirmation on whether you need to have completed your EU Drivers CPC (37.5 hours training over a 5 year period) to be able to drive the bleedin thing now that your vehicle combination will be judged on the gross train weight
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7th Oct 2011 2:18 pm |
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Duncan
Member Since: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Olney
Posts: 30
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I was wondering where I had heard some beaullocks like that Zac,good find chap ! When I die I want it to be in my sleep, like my Grandad ............ not screaming and shouting like his passengers!!
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7th Oct 2011 2:18 pm |
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Duncan
Member Since: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Olney
Posts: 30
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character wrote:remember the law has always been "hire OR reward" not as often people think "hire AND reward" so this does relate to a whole host of business situations
If only to add insult to injury, just awaiting confirmation on whether you need to have completed your EU Drivers CPC (37.5 hours training over a 5 year period) to be able to drive the bleedin thing now that your vehicle combination will be judged on the gross train weight Groan... I have to do that to keep my LGV as well, must sort that out soon, along with all the other training that I now need at 54 years old FFS ! When I die I want it to be in my sleep, like my Grandad ............ not screaming and shouting like his passengers!!
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7th Oct 2011 2:20 pm |
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bigdave
Site Sponsor
Member Since: 04 Jul 2008
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 9869
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I dont live in the EU i live in an democratic nation called ENGLAND, NOT an unelected SOVIET EURO FEDERAL UNION!!
Why cant they just leave us the alone to try and earn some funds to pay for their huge bureaucratic costs and mahoosive expense accounts and pensions.
Im getting properly off with this bull !! I lose track of how many slovak, pole, lithuania wrecks hurtling around and you can put your last euro on it they dont get touched as the VOSA nazis cant trace them.
So its punish the dumb who stick to the rules.
.
Great heads up Matt. All things shipping, storage, transport. UK and worldwide.
E-mail [email protected]
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7th Oct 2011 2:27 pm |
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character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
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ZAC, unfortunately his website relates more to "domestic" legislation as oppose to EU wide legislation that has already been implemented in part or whole of which we are legally oblidged to participate in.
Remember, on the positive side this will lessen the competition from those who continually operate under the radar from overseas and here in the UK
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7th Oct 2011 2:28 pm |
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character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
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Duncan wrote:character wrote:remember the law has always been "hire OR reward" not as often people think "hire AND reward" so this does relate to a whole host of business situations
If only to add insult to injury, just awaiting confirmation on whether you need to have completed your EU Drivers CPC (37.5 hours training over a 5 year period) to be able to drive the bleedin thing now that your vehicle combination will be judged on the gross train weight Groan... I have to do that to keep my LGV as well, must sort that out soon, along with all the other training that I now need at 54 years old FFS ! Tell yer what, these changes are not going to go down well with SME, least of all when they get pulled on 4th Dec
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7th Oct 2011 2:35 pm |
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bobbroom
Member Since: 14 May 2009
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 177
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How much is the cost of an O License?
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7th Oct 2011 2:43 pm |
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