DG
Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50957
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Justme wrote:
Hey ho your loss.
I'm sure we are all devastated  21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
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 15th Aug 2015 11:57 pm |
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minty
Member Since: 04 Jun 2012
Location: Romford
Posts: 21
  
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Hi everyone, after a few hours reading and copious cups of tea going through this thread a massive thanks to the contributors. Now for my question.
I run a business applying paint protection film to high end vehicles and am really in need of offering a free collection and delivery service for my trade customers all within a 50 mile radius (most within 30 miles). Now in your opinions do you think I would an O license. I drive a disco3 and would be towing a 3500kg trailer so I can see I would need a tacho even though my actual time driving would be minimal.
The way I interpret it using the digger analogy is I am picking up a car (digger) that doesn't belong to me to take it to my premises to work on said car (digger) then return the car (digger) after the job, the only payment I receive is for applying said film, I would receive no reimbursement at all for the carriage of the car (digger).
I know it would be easier to get an independent vehicle transport company in to do it, and this I do for retail customers but I would need the trailer to be at my beck and call for the motor trade customers as they are often short notice quick turn around jobs and they want the car gone for the minimum amount of time.
many thanks in advance
Steve.
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| 9th Jan 2016 11:03 pm |
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swift
Member Since: 21 May 2014
Location: Redcar Yorkshire Coast
Posts: 42
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Hi
The digger is a tool for the job so different rules. Transporting a car is transporting goods that do not belong to you therefore the Vosa men and police will say you need an "O" licence.
Although you do not receive payment for carriage you still get a commercial gain.
(Again this is not legal advice. Get legal advice thats paid for so you have redress if it goes pear shape)
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| 11th Jan 2016 12:30 pm |
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minty
Member Since: 04 Jun 2012
Location: Romford
Posts: 21
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Hi Swift, fully appreciate this isn't legal advice, just trying to get things straight in my mind.
I need the car otherwise I can't complete the job, just as the digger scenario he needs the digger to complete his work.
Additionally the digger driver is also receives commercial gain as he cannot do the job with out it.
Again not looking to pick holes and will get legal advice, just chewing things over.
Steve
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| 11th Jan 2016 2:19 pm |
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Justme
Member Since: 09 Aug 2015
Location: Pwllheli North Wales
Posts: 104
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Swift is correct in his advice.
As I mentioned in my pm, look at the O licence exemptions & change your car to one that weights under 2040kg & is a 4x4.
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| 11th Jan 2016 3:34 pm |
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minty
Member Since: 04 Jun 2012
Location: Romford
Posts: 21
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Thanks Swift and Justme,  your responses are much appreciated.
Although I still cant get my head around the difference between me moving a digger owned by someone else at my own cost that is to be used for commercial gain by myself, and moving a car that is owned by someone else at my own cost that too is to be used for commercial gain by myself.
But that is most probably a combination of my thick head and nonsensical rules 
I am not adamant that I want to keep the Disco (although I do really enjoy it and obviously stupid rules aside it's the perfect tool for the job) but there aren't many vehicles that fit the criteria of being 2040kg unladen or below and also able to tow the full 3500kg.
And the whole unladen thing is a total nightmare as well, do you go by the uk definition of being just the basic vehicle less fuel, passengers and driver, or with a specified fuel load and or 75 kg for the driver (I wish I were still 12st  )
I don't mind saying it's doing my head in.
atb
Steve
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| 11th Jan 2016 4:36 pm |
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Justme
Member Since: 09 Aug 2015
Location: Pwllheli North Wales
Posts: 104
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This is all my opinion. The opinion of the law might differ.
The digger would be use by you to carry out the work. The digger becomes a tool for you to do your work.
So as long as you either own or rent the digger its ok.
The car IS the work or product & you do not own or rent it.
You are moving the car as a haulage job.
If you were collecting the car to then USE the car to do a job that would be different. The car would be a "tool".
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| 11th Jan 2016 10:07 pm |
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Justme
Member Since: 09 Aug 2015
Location: Pwllheli North Wales
Posts: 104
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Safest bet re curb / unladen weight is to use the makers figures.
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| 11th Jan 2016 10:18 pm |
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minty
Member Since: 04 Jun 2012
Location: Romford
Posts: 21
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If you use the makers figures then apart from the Defender 90 there are no 4x4 vehicles I can find that fall below the 2040kg weight limit and are still capable of towing 3500kg. 
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| 12th Jan 2016 9:32 am |
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Justme
Member Since: 09 Aug 2015
Location: Pwllheli North Wales
Posts: 104
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Did you use unladen weight or MAM?
I am sure there did used to be a few that complied.
Its a stupid rule as a heavier tow vehicle is safer. There is some talk that they are looking at removing the 2040kg limit, however it does need a limit or you will get big 4x4's using the exemption.
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| 12th Jan 2016 9:59 am |
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minty
Member Since: 04 Jun 2012
Location: Romford
Posts: 21
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I used minimum kerb weight, unladen weight (DIN) and any other weight that was touted as the lowest possible.
This is the definition I am working from
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained
The 75kg for a driver includes 7kg of luggage as well 
So far these are my findings taking the weight of diesel as roughly 0.9g per litre (specific gravity is between 0.86 and 0.92)
BMW X5 xDrive 30d
Unladen 2145 (inc 90% fuel and 75 kg driver)-143.85kg= 2001.15
VW Touareg se, R-line 262ps blue motion
Unladen 2185 (inc 90% fuel (68.85kg) and 75 kg driver) -143.85kg= 2041.15
Audi Q7 3.0 tdi quattro 272bhp (needs dynamic pack to tow 3500kg?)
unladen 2060 (without driver, doesn't mention fuel (75l tank))
Porsche Cayenne diesel tiptronic
Unladen (DIN) 2110kg (85L fuel tank)
Sorry to blaspheme on a Disco forum... 
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| 12th Jan 2016 12:13 pm |
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Justme
Member Since: 09 Aug 2015
Location: Pwllheli North Wales
Posts: 104
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Crazy isn't it?
Its getting harder to find any cat B vehicle that can tow 3500kg now too.
There are some companies that will uprate the spec from the makers to what you need re load capacity & towing allowed.
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| 12th Jan 2016 12:28 pm |
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minty
Member Since: 04 Jun 2012
Location: Romford
Posts: 21
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Cat B?...Insurance write off?
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| 12th Jan 2016 1:32 pm |
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JackNorris
Member Since: 06 Jul 2012
Location: Beds/Bucks Border
Posts: 1877
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Cat B on your driving license
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| 12th Jan 2016 2:27 pm |
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minty
Member Since: 04 Jun 2012
Location: Romford
Posts: 21
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DOH!!
I did say I was thick headed.
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| 12th Jan 2016 3:02 pm |
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