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Whats Got Your Goat Up today ?
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LT
 


Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
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Hmmm, the total tax contribution (TTC) to the revenue of the 100 Group was £77.1bn in 2020/21.
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Post #229599916th Jun 2022 4:18 pm
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RRSTDV8
 


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LT wrote:
RRSTDV8 wrote:
The only way to help the bottom end without squeezing the middle majority, is to up the tax take from the top end. I think we should have a "if you're a Brit then you pay tax no matter where you live" system. You pay local taxes and then you pay to HMRC any difference between the local and the UK taxation amounts. It instantly catches the off shored wealth that is made here but hidden away.

There is also the general point about why billionaires are allowed to even be billionaires. At that level of wealth it's pure status - "my dick is bigger than yours" type stuff. Sure, some millions in the bank is ok but no one needs or should have wealth that is greater than dozens of countries' GDPs. There is no reasonable justification for it.


Deciding a maximum amount of wealth anyone should have is a very slippery slope.

Do we really need to drive Land Rovers?

Do you carry on running your business, that might be a big employer and contributes £m’s to the revenue, when you reach the maximum wealth threshold? What’s the incentive?


You either have a free-for-all and the vast majority end up getting increasingly shafted, or you have some form of limit. We do it to companies - a windfall tax is nothing more than society saying "you've got too much". We do it to individuals too, effectively, with things like inheritance tax - society says "you've got enough now so pay some of it over to society". Heck, we do it to everyone in some form - stepped taxation is effectively setting a limit on what is considered ok to earn before you hand some over to society. We could simply take that further by having a number of steps that tend toward, if not reach, 100% taxation.

I can make a reasonable argument for a person to drive a certain car, I struggle to see any reasonable argument for someone having tens of billions of pounds/dollars. It's interesting that a number of the hyper-wealthy are now standing up and saying "tax us more than you are". They are well aware that they don't need to have billions in the bank because there is no reasonable way anyone person can spend that much money. It's just a way of showing the world that you've been "successful" in a very narrow definition of the word.

Look at the billionaires that now fund charities with big sums / set up foundations, etc.. That's all very worthy but it's shutting the door after the horse has bolted. Giving money to charity to help people is too late. That money is needed by society to stop the charity cases happening in the first place.

As for the incentive - the type of person that generates these types of bank balances (yes, I know it's not really money in the bank) are the type that would drive on with business building anyway. It's their thing. It's what gets them out of bed every day.
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"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!" 
 
Post #229600016th Jun 2022 4:29 pm
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Scott #55
 


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Do what the train drivers did in Japan - ran all the services as normal b ut refused to collect any ticket money. Travelling puplic got where they needed to be and hit the train companies in the pocket.
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Post #229600516th Jun 2022 4:55 pm
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Moleshome
 


Member Since: 15 Oct 2020
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United Kingdom 2016 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 Landmark LE Auto Yulong WhiteDiscovery 4

LT wrote:
Hmmm, the total tax contribution (TTC) to the revenue of the 100 Group was £77.1bn in 2020/21.


Of which roughly two thirds is taxes collected on behalf of the government which sort of backs up the point I was making.
  
Post #229600616th Jun 2022 5:01 pm
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LT
 


Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 20577

United Kingdom 2016 Discovery 4 3.0 TDV6 Landmark LE Auto Santorini BlackDiscovery 4

RRSTDV8 wrote:
LT wrote:
RRSTDV8 wrote:
The only way to help the bottom end without squeezing the middle majority, is to up the tax take from the top end. I think we should have a "if you're a Brit then you pay tax no matter where you live" system. You pay local taxes and then you pay to HMRC any difference between the local and the UK taxation amounts. It instantly catches the off shored wealth that is made here but hidden away.

There is also the general point about why billionaires are allowed to even be billionaires. At that level of wealth it's pure status - "my dick is bigger than yours" type stuff. Sure, some millions in the bank is ok but no one needs or should have wealth that is greater than dozens of countries' GDPs. There is no reasonable justification for it.


Deciding a maximum amount of wealth anyone should have is a very slippery slope.

Do we really need to drive Land Rovers?

Do you carry on running your business, that might be a big employer and contributes £m’s to the revenue, when you reach the maximum wealth threshold? What’s the incentive?


You either have a free-for-all and the vast majority end up getting increasingly shafted, or you have some form of limit. We do it to companies - a windfall tax is nothing more than society saying "you've got too much". We do it to individuals too, effectively, with things like inheritance tax - society says "you've got enough now so pay some of it over to society". Heck, we do it to everyone in some form - stepped taxation is effectively setting a limit on what is considered ok to earn before you hand some over to society. We could simply take that further by having a number of steps that tend toward, if not reach, 100% taxation.

I can make a reasonable argument for a person to drive a certain car, I struggle to see any reasonable argument for someone having tens of billions of pounds/dollars. It's interesting that a number of the hyper-wealthy are now standing up and saying "tax us more than you are". They are well aware that they don't need to have billions in the bank because there is no reasonable way anyone person can spend that much money. It's just a way of showing the world that you've been "successful" in a very narrow definition of the word.

Look at the billionaires that now fund charities with big sums / set up foundations, etc.. That's all very worthy but it's shutting the door after the horse has bolted. Giving money to charity to help people is too late. That money is needed by society to stop the charity cases happening in the first place.

As for the incentive - the type of person that generates these types of bank balances (yes, I know it's not really money in the bank) are the type that would drive on with business building anyway. It's their thing. It's what gets them out of bed every day.


I can also make a reasonable argument both for and against a person driving a certain car, as I can for someone having tens of billions of pounds/dollars.

As for charities, if we always had sage and prudent governments in charge, then yes they'd be less need for them. As it is we don't and never have and many people, myself included, prefer to donate to charities than trust the government to spend additional taxes wisely.

There should be far better public services in the UK and a simpler, fairer, better tax system. But suggesting a cap on wealth is in my opinion as dangerous as saying that nobody needs to drive a Range Rover. Thumbs Up
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Post #229600716th Jun 2022 5:01 pm
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RRSTDV8
 


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Fair enough. I'm not sure a "cap" of, for example £1bn would be harmful to anyone. If aren't happy to have such upper limits then perhaps we should scrap all limits and just say "no tax of any sort, sort it out as you wish individually". I think I know which extreme would cause by far the most damage to the majority of the population.

The direction we are taking now is heading, slowly but surely, to a return of the inequalities of the 18th and 19th centuries, where almost all wealth and ownership was vested in the hands of a few and the vast majority were living either side of the bread line.

An alternative view, perhaps - people often say "it's not the Government's money, it's our money". Now, look at the billionaires - if the money in the system is our money, then it's not the billionaire's money, it's our money. Are you still happy to see it squandered away by an individual when so many could benefit from it?
 Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
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"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!" 
 
Post #229601216th Jun 2022 5:33 pm
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LT
 


Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
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United Kingdom 2016 Discovery 4 3.0 TDV6 Landmark LE Auto Santorini BlackDiscovery 4

I am against any cap on wealth as it would, in my opinion, stop expansion of the businesses of many of the greatest entrepreneurs and business people.

Lets take James Dyson as an example.

I strongly disagree with much of his political thinking, often find him hypocritical and I am critical of some of his past tax avoidance (albeit legal). Equally there's much I admire about his work, tenacity and his charitable foundation, particularly his support of engineering.

Would Dyson employ the number of people his company does now and continue to reinvest in its people, equipment, laboratories, new technology and it's current expansion plans if his personal wealth had been capped at £1bn? I suspect not.
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Post #229601816th Jun 2022 6:24 pm
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HWN
 


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Not quite John Galt.
 
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Post #229602016th Jun 2022 6:43 pm
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Moleshome
 


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I'd argue that what's needed is not a cap on individual wealth but measures to ensure a more equitable sharing of that wealth amongst the people that generate it. It just cannot be right that the owners of these companies are amassing vast personal fortunes at the same time as their employees are having to work second jobs and/or rely on the benefits system.
  
Post #229604116th Jun 2022 8:42 pm
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Rescue01
 


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Jeeze Derek you’ve ruined this thread Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Post #229604316th Jun 2022 8:52 pm
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DSL
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Guilty as charged. Just waiting on the whole chunk getting moved to the Forbidden Zone/Politics bit, then life will be back to normal and we just complain about DPD and Hermes. Whistle
   
Post #229604616th Jun 2022 9:08 pm
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HWN
 


Member Since: 23 Feb 2018
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Moleshome wrote:
I'd argue that what's needed is not a cap on individual wealth but measures to ensure a more equitable sharing of that wealth amongst the people that generate it. It just cannot be right that the owners of these companies are amassing vast personal fortunes at the same time as their employees are having to work second jobs and/or rely on the benefits system.


How about a rule that the CEO can't earn more than 'x' times that of the average wage of their employees or 'y' times that of the lowest-paid employee? Average or median is up for discussion.

Am I turning into a right-wing socialist or a socialist right-winger?!
 
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Post #229604916th Jun 2022 9:20 pm
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RRSTDV8
 


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I think the issue is nicely summed up by the fact that the department dealing with employees used to be called "personnel" and now is "human resources". Companies treat their staff as nothing better than the computers on the desk. They're just a resource. Something to be used up.
 Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
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2008 RRS TDV8
"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!" 
 
Post #229605516th Jun 2022 10:14 pm
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Hardware
 


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@HWN ... that's exactly how I felt. My natural position used to be somewhere to the right of Ghengis Khan and Attilla the Hun, and SWMBO thinks I've been a lifelong Tory voter ... I refuse to tell her who I vote for ... but truth is I've probably voted for them only once or twice at General Elections in 30 years. All based on reading manifesto then factoring in how much I trust any party to stick to it.

There is so much stuff that only makes sense when nationalised. Trains, buses , water, power for starters.
 .


Dean
====================================

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Post #229605616th Jun 2022 10:24 pm
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LT
 


Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
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United Kingdom 2016 Discovery 4 3.0 TDV6 Landmark LE Auto Santorini BlackDiscovery 4

RRSTDV8 wrote:
I think the issue is nicely summed up by the fact that the department dealing with employees used to be called "personnel" and now is "human resources". Companies treat their staff as nothing better than the computers on the desk. They're just a resource. Something to be used up.


Is that all companies, or just some? What about the public sector, are you including that in “companies”?
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2017 FFRR SDV8 Autobiography 


Last edited by LT on 16th Jun 2022 10:33 pm. Edited 1 time in total 
Post #229605816th Jun 2022 10:26 pm
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