Member Since: 26 Nov 2008
Location: West Lothian
Posts: 950
Injector/Fueling woes ...
My cars currently sitting at my local indys, with some sort of injector/fueling problem
They are struggling to come up with a definative answer to the problem, and I'm relucatant to throw nearly £2k at it to replace all the injectors on a maybe
The car is throwing up error codes P02A6 and P029F
P02A6 = Cylinder 4 - Fuel Trim at Max Limit
P029F = Cylinder 2 - Fuel Trim at Min Limit
They said that they have run the car on the autologic kit they have, and its definetly showing up an injector problem due to the readings? but they are unsure which it is. They are going to send me a video of the test/reults of the autologic
The car has a lumpy idle, and idles fluctuate -/+200rpm, some black/blue smoke can ben seen out of the exhausts, and lack of power
I've found a diesel specialist locally who has a common rail test bed, and they can test all the injectors to point out any bad ones, but my local indy says this way is still expensive becuse the injectors would need new fitting kits to re-fit once tested at £60 each injector (see pic below)
Can anyone advice on the best way forward within reasonable cost
The cars done 115k and full sevice history
Thanks
Ade
20th Oct 2011 10:33 am
bellautos
Member Since: 02 Feb 2006
Location: NorthYorkshire
Posts: 2532
Hi
I assume they have tested the fuel pressure and changed the fuel filter while also making sure the intank pump is perfect etc etc.
Im not sure how old your car it as you have not stated but older cars with a fare few miles on could need the intank pump filter cleaning/repalcing or even the pump its self could be weak and outputting a lower pressure than it should causeing the injectors to read wrong.
Also ive changed fitted replaced loads and loads of injectors without the fitting kit and have had noproblems using the removed parts again.
See if your diesel injector testing company can supply you new copper washers, failing that use the old ones or contack Jaguar and Peugeot to see if they sell the washers seperatly.
Pete
Pete
20th Oct 2011 10:57 am
Ade
Member Since: 26 Nov 2008
Location: West Lothian
Posts: 950
Thanks for your input Pete, much appreciated, especillay the info regarding fitting the injectors without the need of buying and fitting a new fitting kit
Its a 2005 D3 with 115k miles on the clock; with FSH (one due next month)
The local indy say that they dont really get D3's with injector/fuel problems, so are a bit stumped
They have fitted a new fuel filter, but that made no change to the running. I also asked the question regarding pressure, but they said that they cannot test the pressure, but also if it was to do with pressure it would have a fault code realting to that stored, but it only has the 2 as previously described
How do you go about testing the pressure?
Is changing the injectors something that can be done DIY? I'm fairly handy with a spanner; learnt pretty quick owning a 300tdi aswell
I'm wondering whether its best to collect the car back, and try to fix myself
20th Oct 2011 11:29 am
bellautos
Member Since: 02 Feb 2006
Location: NorthYorkshire
Posts: 2532
Hi
I dont really want to get in the middle of you and what an indy is telling you so my answers will reflect that.
Im asking thses questions not for an answer for my self but for you to ask them to help you.
Did they fit a genuine filter ?
Is the fuel pump in the tank noisy ? if so why ?
They can test pump pressure on the engine if they tap into one of the main feeds
Have they done an injector leak off/spill test to see if one injector is leaking back to mch pressure ?
Have they measured the fuel return pressure to the tank ?
Is it only lumpy when cold ?
Has it sucked in any water off roading and caused internal damage ?
Etc etc.
Changing injectors is not that hard but i personally feel you have many more tests to do first.
Pete
20th Oct 2011 11:48 am
Dave T
Member Since: 03 Jul 2009
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 6903
I think you are lucky have fault codes showing for the injectors, mine didn't show any and was still running fine at over tickover.
Having spoken to numerous people on the subject over the course of this year then there are a few other things to try which they may or may not have done so far:
Leak off test
Compression test - be aware that the normal way of doing this on these cars is via the glow plugs which can prove very difficult to remove and if unlucky may shear off in the head.
Change the 2 injectors with faults with other cylinders - does the fault change with the injectors?
I did investigate testing the injectors, but be aware it is not a cheap process, I think you are into 3 figures ..... each ...... from the places I found.
Changing the seals is a LR recommended procedure and includes changing the pipes as well, they come in at £48 plus VAT for each cylinder. Injectors are £217 plus VAT each although you may have a £40 surcharge on top initially.
Why are they saying change them all, I have recently been informed that you DO NOT need to do them all.
If you have any further queries from my experience then feel free to PM me, as for legal reasons I cannot discuss openly.
You could also try giving Sean a call at
Direct Automotive Diagnostics
Unit 8, North Street Ind Est
North Street
Paisley
PA3 2BS
Tel: 01418489212Joined the BMWX5 45e group
1994 Defender 90
2015 RRS Corris Grey/Black roof
2016 D4 Graphite Santorini Black
2012 D4 XS Orkney Grey
2005 D3 S Maya Gold
Convoy for Heroes 2011
20th Oct 2011 12:42 pm
crazy
Member Since: 27 Jan 2008
Location: Near Milan
Posts: 1852
Hello Pete, my D3 has lumpy idle only when cold in the winter; would be able to be the injectors? ThanksLandy lover
Membro del Club
21st Oct 2011 10:35 am
Dave T
Member Since: 03 Jul 2009
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 6903
If its only when cold, its possibly a glow plug not workingJoined the BMWX5 45e group
1994 Defender 90
2015 RRS Corris Grey/Black roof
2016 D4 Graphite Santorini Black
2012 D4 XS Orkney Grey
2005 D3 S Maya Gold
Convoy for Heroes 2011
21st Oct 2011 11:34 am
crazy
Member Since: 27 Jan 2008
Location: Near Milan
Posts: 1852
Hi Dave T; perhaps, but the test tells that it is everything ok.
My D3 has 155K Km and the thing could be however, mah......
CiaoLandy lover
Membro del Club
21st Oct 2011 12:16 pm
pcregeen
Member Since: 02 Feb 2008
Location: Huddersfield
Posts: 421
For £60 quid you should be able to get the injectors removed then have them tested at a injector specialist for about £80 This will tell you exactly what the problem is on the Min, Med and Max spray and whether to replace or not
Pete
21st Oct 2011 12:35 pm
crazy
Member Since: 27 Jan 2008
Location: Near Milan
Posts: 1852
£ 60 for all? It's a good price.Landy lover
Membro del Club
21st Oct 2011 2:15 pm
Liston
Member Since: 28 Apr 2011
Location: Sussex
Posts: 24
Injectors I just spent at lot replacing all 6 and while the computor says they are all ok now it did not cure the engine fault. I am now looking at fault codes P120F and P0500, fuel presuure spikes and speed sensor fault.
Will let you know how I get on.
It was Autologic that said it was ijectors, and you do not need the fitting kit. Copper washers are pence from your local agriculutral dealers. if you do replace the injectors , Tip to keep the copper washer on while you fit the injector, just put a small bit of grease on the washer and it will stick to the injector so it locates easy.
21st Oct 2011 7:51 pm
Ade
Member Since: 26 Nov 2008
Location: West Lothian
Posts: 950
The garage have run the injectors through the autologic again, and the same two injectors are showing figures outwith LR's specification
They still think its an injector (or two) problem, but they say that it might not necessarily be the two flagged up by the autologic. They are saying that because it's common rail diesel the fault could be any of the injectors, hence why they would look at replacing all of them.
There are no noises coming from the tank pump, and when mentioning pressures to them, they are telling me that there is no point in testing, as that's not the problem - no fault codes.
They have tested the glowplugs and they seem to be giving correct readings.
They have however agreed that taking the injectors to be tested is a good idea to determine which are fault. The injector test costs £17.50+VAT per injector. After speaking to the diesel injector specialist, they can also do an exchange service on the injectors being Siemens approved dealers, so a new one would be £120+VAT, which is better than LR.
They are also willing to not go down the route of using 6 new injector fitting kits and instead use only new copper washers, but I have to supply the washers. Does anyone know what size they are?
The only problem now is that the local Indy says that one of the injectors is a pain to remove due to location (i think they said no.6 injector?) and could take up to 3hrs alone?
Does this sound right? As at £50/hr labour its expensive
I need to get back to them on Monday morning with want I want to do
I feel that testing the injectors is the way forward, but would I better getting the car back to remove the injectors myself?
Thanks for all the replies so far
Ade
23rd Oct 2011 8:42 pm
character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
£50 an hour is VERY cheap.....inde down ere are around £85 plus vat or LR £110 plus vat
My advice, let them get on with it, if they balls something when doing it, then you've got some kind of recourse
plus you've got the " I going to undermine your expertise by doing the job myself" to contend with when you return to get the injectors fitted
23rd Oct 2011 9:18 pm
Dave T
Member Since: 03 Jul 2009
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 6903
It sounds like they are giving you good advice by getting the injectors tested before making you take new ones. If the machine says injectors then you need to follow that route. I don't recall it taking 3 hours to remove any single one of mine, Disco_mikey would be able to confirm though. I would imagine the injector testers would be able to get new washers for you if you asked them.Joined the BMWX5 45e group
1994 Defender 90
2015 RRS Corris Grey/Black roof
2016 D4 Graphite Santorini Black
2012 D4 XS Orkney Grey
2005 D3 S Maya Gold
Convoy for Heroes 2011
24th Oct 2011 7:18 am
Liston
Member Since: 28 Apr 2011
Location: Sussex
Posts: 24
The back injector can be pain to remove, BUT the dealers always act negative about this job, If they are a LR dealer they will have the special tool to do this job, however most injectors will come out without it.you won't know unless they try first.They should know with in 30mins.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
