Took the D3 over the M8 to Edinburgh today and on the way I was happily sitting about 70 ish in 6th gear, when all of a sudden I get ESF, SP Progs Off and loss of power No dash lights, nothing??
I coasted onto the hard shoulder and got to about 20 MPH in third gear, dropped into 2nd and she simply picked up again and off we went without issue. However, on the way back I manged to repeat it upon accelerating on a slip road. I since sussed that it only occurs upon hard acceleration and I can easily repeat it over and over with the same results. I do not need to stop or cycle the ignition, simply slow down, drop the revs i.e. clutch in and she then picks up and drives normally.
She drives fine when not gunning it and there is no apparent lack of power until the ESF kicks in. I've read several threads on this tonight and have several theories in my head. I don't have a fault code reader (yet!) and I realise I need to get then read to really diag any further but just wondered if anybody had any similar experience i.e. fine until you accelerate hard.
Without lack of power when driving normally, I'm thinking it is not an obvious split hose issue and with me checking my turbo actuator about 3 weeks ago (it was slack and did not seem at all siezed) but applying a liberal amount of WD 40 for good measure anyway, I assuming it's not the actuator. This leaves me with a few thoughts; almost CFT club membership , Fuel Pump issues ,or the more palatable thought that the Fuel filter may be the issue as it is overdue a change?
Any ideas to steer me in the right direction would be much appreciated
Also, recommendations for anyone near me (north west Glasgow), where I could get codes read would be very helpful.
Thanks in advance
2nd Mar 2015 1:54 am
MGCarr
Member Since: 15 Jul 2014
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 703
I have seen the same symptoms in a couple of different diesels, in both case it was the fuel filter. I think it starts to clog and then can't deliver the amount of fuel the high pressure pump needs to maintain pressure in the common rail during hard acceleration. In both case fault codes for low fuel pressure were present. As it is certainly the cheapest of the possible causes I would recommend starting there.
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2nd Mar 2015 2:04 am
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
A new fuel filter does fix many with symptoms such as yours, but even when it cures the immediate issue it is rarely the true cause.
There are many D3s out there with very tired LP pumps and the slightest restriction at the fuel filter will then starve the fuel system at high demand rates. When I scope these LP pumps I often find very low amperage being drawn as the pump impellers are shot providing little load for the pump motor.
A healthy fuel pump (in this case on a D4) pushing loads of fuel and drawing 9.9 amps:
It is also worth getting codes read and checking the fuel system for any signs of a leak. Same is true with the air pipes.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 11 Dec 2012
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 97
Thanks for the prompt responses.
Seems like fuel filter should be my first port of call then.
Robbie, I read your thread on testing the LPFP earlier on and found it very interesting. It seems like a couple of fairly simple but informative tests so will give that a go and see what comes back.
Jason
2nd Mar 2015 8:40 am
Jakeboy
Member Since: 11 Dec 2012
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 97
Update
Finally managed to get some time this evening to look into this a bit more, particularly carrying out the tests suggested by Robbie to rule out the Low Pressure Fuel Pump (LPFP) or "In-tank Pump", as it is sometimes referred. The testing was really easy as described previously by Robbie, and I would urge others to try it out, even just for piece of mind. I don't currently have a clamp-on style Ammeter so I thought I'd provide my own short description and a couple of pics of how I carried out the tests with just a standard multi-meter for others who may have similar issues and are unsure.
To recap, the car runs fine and pulls as expected under normal throttle positions but if I accelerate harder than normal I get an ESF warning and into Limp mode. This however, corrects itself upon reducing speed / revs and will run as normal until I next gun the throttle. Initial consensus, without the benefits of a code reader to confirm, is that it may be a fuel starvation issue.
I've ordered a new OEM fuel filter as suggested on an earlier forum post (OEM filter and bracket for £35), as it will do no harm to change it anyway and for that price, a no-brainer really. I will fit in due course but I also carried out the following procedure, with interesting results;
1. Removed battery cover and fusebox cover in LHS of engine bay to expose battery terminals and fuses.
2. Using my Digital Multimeter (DMM), I first checked the voltage on both sides of the LPFP fuse (Fuse No. 1, 25 Amp). This is relatively easy, with the DMM set to 12v DC. I had one lead( Black, -ve), fixed onto ground or battery -ve terminal and the other (Red, +ve) lead touching each side of the 25A fuse in turn (on the exposed sections of the blades on the top of the fuse. I got 12.6volts with the ignition on and the pump energised for about 15 secs through the relay. This voltage was available at both sides of the fuse, therefore confirming the fuse is not blown
3. I carried out the same test with the engine running and I got results in the region of 14 volts, as would be expected with the Alternator charging, so ruling out any issue with the fuse or power supply to the pump. (see pic below)
4. I then switched the engine off, keys out and pulled the 25 Amp Fuse No. 1 out.
5. Having set the DMM to measure Amps, I connected the probes into the now empty fuse holder i.e. one on each side where the 25 A fuse blades were previously engaged, effectively replacing the fuse with the meter which would then display the current being drawn by the LPFP, through the DMM.
6. Once the probes were in securely and the meter in a secure position, I then re-started the engine and got the Amps reading as per pic below;
So there we have it! I believe, as per Robbie's earlier post, a healthy LPFP should be drawing around 9.9Amps whereas mine is showing only around 4.7Amps. I'm surprised the car is still running at this low reading, perhaps a healthier HPFP is helping to pull the fuel through?
I then switched the engine off, removed the DMM probes, replaced the 25 A fuse and put the fuse and battery box covers back on, to complete the job.
So, for the sake of a couple of simple tests (10 mins tops), I believe I have successfully diagnosed a worn / faulty LPFP being the main cause of my ESF issues. I would urge anyone who may be unsure about doing these tests (as I was), to give it a go as in reality it is fairly straight forward.
Big thanks to the forum members again and especially Robbie for his invaluable knowledge and advice
Now to source a replacement LPFP Steeeeevvvve!!!
I'll post a further update once I've replaced the pump and filter which, will hopefully confirm my issue is resolved ( although it'll probably turn out to be a brake light bulb )
4th Mar 2015 10:45 pm
Allan_T
Member Since: 10 Sep 2012
Location: Northampton
Posts: 1034
One additional check before condemning the LPFP, check the power and ground at the pump. The low current draw can also be attributed to a high resistance further along the circuit.GAP IID Pro Multi Vehicle Defender L316 2007-2015 - Discovery 3 - Discovery 4 - Discovery Sport L550 - Freelander 2 - Range Rover Evoque L538 - Range Rover L322 - Range Rover L405 - Range Rover Sport L320 - Range Rover Sport L494 Electrical Fault Diagnostics
4th Mar 2015 11:26 pm
Jakeboy
Member Since: 11 Dec 2012
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 97
Cheers for the tip Allan
Can this be done without removing the tank?
I've not done a complete search yet but from what I have seen so far, it seems that the tank needs dropped to do any work related to the LPFP?
4th Mar 2015 11:38 pm
Disco_Mikey
Member Since: 29 May 2007
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Posts: 20732
Tank out job. Don't be tempted to go for the cheaper repair kit. Spend the extra, and get an OEM tank module.
It is around £300, but will save you dropping the tank twice My D3 Build Thread
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
The check you have done is a valid and well done for giving it a go and for posting the pictures. Pictures always help to demystify this stuff for those who do not venture under the bonnet that often.
8)
The reason I like using an amp clamp is due to the high current the circuit can potentially draw. A good pump can be close to or above the typical maximum for a DMM, so you have to be careful. A partially blocked pump can blow the fuse in the average meter and for those that trust the cheapo meters without proper fuses may just blow it apart. From the symptoms you described a low current was most likely, but worth mentioning for thread reader's in the future.
As already hinted at, the price of a LP fuel pump warrants a further confirmation that this really is the pump at fault, even though it is the most likely cause. Those with a graphing meter or scope can count peaks or troughs and with a calculator work out pump RPM, to see if the pump is running slow potentially due to high resistance.
Another technique with faster (better quality) meters with a min max function is to check for a high current inrush when the fuel pump is switched on (as it is a simple DC pump motor). If this rushes up to a high number before dropping back then this is indicative of good wiring. If there is no big inrush current and it is artificially smoothed-out then this suggests high resistance on the vehicle wiring. Otherwise conduct normal power and ground checks at the fuel pump connector to rule out high resistance on the vehicle wiring (as mentioned by Allan).
Fuel pressure gauges can help with initial diagnostics, but when they do confirm low pressure they do not tell you the cause. This is where the humble DMM comes into its own.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
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This chap has done a bundle of videos on this subject. The link below covers a range of stuff and from around the 34 min mark he covers bypassing the fuel pump relay (albeit with an expensive box rather than a simple jumper wire), using an amp meter, voltage checks plus power and ground checks at the LP fuel pump connector:
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Member Since: 11 Jan 2015
Location: Woking
Posts: 130
My wife complaint about having a similar problem. When shes driving and decided to put her foot down in high gears to pass a car or speed up before a hill the car looser power and the revs jump up. This sounds similar to the above issue I hope. Its never done it to me so I can only go on what she tells me.
5th Mar 2015 10:24 am
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
If the revs are climbing but drive is being lost it is not an engine power/fuel issue.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 11 Jan 2015
Location: Woking
Posts: 130
That's the first thing that came to mind was the clutch. I've tried when I drive it to get the same result but nothing. I've accelerated the hell out of it but no slip.
5th Mar 2015 10:38 am
maplecottage
Member Since: 01 Feb 2011
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 3171
You sure she's not riding the clutch - the pedal makes a handy foot rest. Just ask my missus, she'll tell you
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in 6th gear, when all of a sudden I get ESF, SP Progs Off and loss of power 
No dash lights, nothing??
, Fuel Pump issues 
